In this article I would like to demonstrate how homosexuals destroy their health and their lives because of their dangerous lifestyle choice. I want to help people who are homosexual as well as those who are considering becoming homosexual to choose wisely, that is to choose to be obedient to God instead of a slave to the sin of homosexuality. In this modern era, people discuss the topic of homosexuality almost on a daily basis. It is interesting to see how so many people contort themselves into pretzels in order to hide the disastrous effects of homosexuality and try to promote the positive (as if there is anything positive about it). Even though there is nothing positive about homosexuality, many want to convince everyone that it is ok to be homosexual, even cool, hip, and modern. The truth about homosexuality is that it is evil, leaving a wake of destruction in its unholy path. The Bible says that those who practice the devious sin of homosexuality receive in their own bodies the punishment for their actions. Now the medical field has the evidence to prove what the Bible has been saying all along. I do not wish death upon anyone, especially upon homosexuals, but death is the exact payment for the homosexual lifestyle (not brought upon by another person directly). Because I do not wish death upon anyone I am motivated by the love of God to share the truth, the Word of God about homosexuality and its dangers. People who promote homosexuality are evil because they support a lifestyle that kills and destroys.
- Homosexuality promotes promiscuity. Before 1978, pre HIV/AIDS epidemic, 75% of white homosexual males freely admitted to having over 100 plus different sexual (male) partners. This is an extremely sad truth to learn about the homosexual lifestyle. If it stopped there then it would be bad enough but it gets worse. 15% of that original 75% claim to have had more than 200 plus sexual (male) partners. 28% of that original 75% claim to have had more than 1000 plus sexual (male) partners. As you can easily see from these stats, the idea of fidelity among homosexuals is almost nonexistent.
- Promiscuity leads to STD’s. It does not matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual, promiscuity is an evil that brings terrible consequences. The problem with homosexuality is that practicing this lifestyle places you at a greater risk of contracting an STD. From 1986 until 1990 there was a study taken among homosexuals in their 20’s and the findings were that homosexuals who are in their 20’s have a 50% chance of being infected with HIV/AIDS by the age of 55. In San Francisco CA, the department of health has a report describing how syphilis has reached epidemic stages among homosexuals. Here is a list of STD’s that are common among homosexuals: cancer anal, Chlamydia trachomatis, Cryptosporidium, Giardia lamblia, Herpes simplex virus, Human immunodeficiency virus, Human papilloma virus, Isospora belli, Microsporidia, Gonorrhea, Viral hepatitis types B & C, and Syphilis. In the city of Seattle during the year 1999, there was a report given showing that 85% of the syphilis cases were attributed to homosexuals. Another serious disease among homosexuals is a phenomenon known as the gay bowel syndrome. I will not go into details about this disease. If you would like to research it, feel free. It is not for the weak of heart.
- Promiscuity also causes mental problems. Many homosexuals attribute their mental problems to the fact that they are a minority in society and that they do not have the same “rights” as everyone else. In Holland, a place homosexuality is accepted as normal, homosexuals still have a very high rate of depression (a mental illness). In fact, being homosexual puts you at risk of depression and suicide.
- If you are a homosexual then you shorten your life by at least 20 years. There is a proverb in Africa that says, “do not break down a fence until you know why the fence was built in the first place”. God tells us very clearly in His Word that we are to be faithful; first and foremost to Him but also to our partners in marriage. God also tells us why we should be faithful. It is for our own good, our own protection. Faithfulness is like a fence that protects us from the evils that lie outside of faithfulness. Because many have chosen not to listen to God and follow Him faithfully as a society, we all have to pay the price. The price is seen in the number of STD’s that is growing every year. Homosexuality plays a large role in this problem (along with all immorality). It is bad enough that wicked people have to pay the price for their actions but what is worse is when innocent people suffer and are at risk because of the lifestyle and choices of evil people. It is bad enough that immoral people are destroying their own lives but what is worse is the fact that they promote their lifestyle as something good for society. This is why homosexuality is evil and a danger for all of society.
Please do not be deceived by evil people who want to teach you that homosexuality is ok and that there is nothing dangerous about it. Homosexuality is dangerous for individuals, society, and the world. Be a wise person and take a stand against homosexuality before it is too late, before more innocent people suffer needlessly. Fight against the evils of homosexuality by sharing the Truth of the Gospel as found in the Word of God. Take the hope of the Gospel to homosexuals so that they can have hope by coming out from under the slavery that homosexuality brings. God help us.
Source (added for all those who have requested)
Erik and Elena Brewer's Weblog 
I’m a homosexual,
I love my girlfriend very much, she’s the best thing that’s ever happened to me! And that my ignorant friend, is the biggest positive in my life.
And even if I did die twenty years earlier, it’d be worth it a thousand times. A year with her would be better than fifty years without!
Don’t worry,
I will forgive you for your ignorane and God will to. It’s the same ignorance that brings on war, genecide and slavery.
Peace.
Em
Whatever you have for your girlfriend is not love if you are in a homosexual relationship. God calls homosexuality shameful and detestable. There is nothing that you need to forgive me for, I am just the messenger. But as usual, instead of attacking the message the messenger becomes the object of attack. Immorality is never worth it. Plus, with immorality (homosexuality) you put other people’s lives at risk. Are you so selfish that you do not care about others. There is hope for you though, you do not have to remain homosexual. You can repent and receive forgiveness and a changed life, being set free from the bondage of homosexuality. BTW, God forgave me about 10 years ago so that has already been taken care of. As far as the name calling goes, you can leave that for the grade-school kids, we are more mature here. Thanks.
name calling?
Where did you see any of that from Emma?
From a historical perspective the Catholic Church has always been a walking contradiction. During the middle ages, christianity prescribed the death penalty for homosexual behavior, but also had a selection of liturgies for same-sex weddings ( Meem & Gibson, 2010).
I would advise you to learn the difference between religion and Christianity. The Catholic Church may have many contradictions but the Bible has none. Those who practice Biblical Christianity as revealed in the Bible will never live in contradiction. Your argument tries to compare apples to oranges. Just because you say you are a Christian does not make you a Christian. Plus you can be Catholic without being born again yet you cannot be a true Christian unless you have been born again. (comments added by Erik)
Before Constantine came to power the Scantinian Law only punished homosexual behavior with a small fine ( Meem & Gibson, 2010). Saints Serge and Bacchus are now virtually proven to have been in a homosexual union. The majority of documents proving Christians did perform homosexual weddings can be found in Serbia Slavonic and Greek records through the seventh to sixteenth centuries( Meem& Gibson, 2010). Same sex weddings were abolished for political reasons, not because of interpretation of biblical text.
We cannot claim to know G-D’s opinions based on poor mistranslations of ancient texts. We must also consider who this book was translated BY ( men in power) and what socio-political motives and viewpoints they held at the time. The bible, like every other historical text, must be viewed in context.
The texts are complete and perfect. Do not blame the texts because people have misused them. If the Bible were followed, then the world would radically change for the better. But, since It is not, we have what we have today, and have had throughout the ages. (edited by Erik)
Your God calls lots of things sinful yet you still do them so I ask you this, what gives you the right to say this sin is worse than the sins you commit?
What sins do I commit since you seem to know me so well? (if you come with hair cutting or eating shellfish or something like that, then I will have to laugh at you). One sin is no greater than another but some sin have worse societal consequences (like sexual immorality, homosexuality, murder, etc.)
You are a dumb . . . (edited because of extremely foul language) who must never have read the new testiment (testament, correct spelling added by admin)
See comment # 158
You have commited the sin of being a bigot and a close minded retard who is incabable of reading the new testiment
Do you mean that not agreeing with a dangerous lifestyle is being a bigot? Do you agree with the lifestyle that murderers live? What about child molesters?
As for the name calling. That usually ends around 1st or 2nd grade for most educated people. So, either you have yet to make it to 2nd grade or the other option is applicable, which is it?
I wonder how many people found this page by typing the words “Bondage” and “Homosexuality” into google.
hi Erick .. i totaly agree with you ! but God doesn’t punish anyone … we cannot judge people neither decide if God will punish them or not !
I appreciate your thoughts but I must point out of couple of N.T. verses where God does deal with judging people.
To claim that God does not judge is just not Biblical. God has judged sin, is judging sin, and will judge the sinner for not accepting the gift of salvation from sin, in Jesus Christ.
Also, pointing out a dangerous lifestyle and judging a person are two totally different things.
you do not know what forgiveness is and where it comes from . How can you doing evil forgive someone who tells you that you do evil. ?
you are insane that is why.
Emma !!
you do not know what forgiveness is and where it comes from . How can you doing evil forgive someone who tells you that you do evil. ?
you are insane that is why.
Whoo Go Emma! My Girlfriend is the best thing that ever happened to me as well!! I’ve never cheated on her, or slept with any other person! That alone makes this whole article invalid. I’m commited to her and only her and if I could Marry her I would. Point taken infidelity, is wrong. But its not all the homosexuals doing, you said so yourself. So maybe instead of homosexuality is dangerous to yourself, maybe you should try Cheating is bad for your health? And its not a choice, sure there’s denial which seems like maybe the case for you. But Erik of your happy thats great, I’m not here to tell you how to live your life. Just don’t tell me how to live mine.
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hi Elena fisrt time i heard such a rubbish no i’m not gay but have friends who r, i’m afraid ur argruements doesn’t bode well wtih me. God how can u put god in this Damn u people use god for all ur hatred
First of all, what/who gives you the authority to compare God’s Word to rubbish?
Secondly, if this is the first time that you have heard of the dangers of homosexuality then you need to educate yourself on the subject. Read more. Be careful that you are not just getting one point of view so that you will not be so easily deceived.
Thirdly, showing the truth about homosexuality is not hatred. I think that you need to look of the word hate in the dictionary and study up on its meaning. God hates homosexuality yet at the same time He loves homosexuals, He wants to forgive them, and He wants to set them free from their slavery. That is not hate, that is love. Hate is knowing that someone is in trouble and doing nothing about it.
We do not hate people but their sins. We love all people and God most of all that Is why we are showing Him our gratitude and obedience, but we hate the sin.
Because of the sin we die , because of our sins God was crucified. Because of homosexual sin (which is worse then adultery- sins of the flesh) many goes to hell and because we love our brethren we do not want them to get to hell but to heaven.
And God is sicken of every even little sin. He is absolute love ,purity and perfection.
Guilt of something and lack of knowledge of God agitates many.
Why is the West so hypocritical? Why the duplicity and the applying of double standards?
They accept and support homosexuality which they Westerners find normal. They find normal even same sex ‘marriages’. You accept a man or a woman to have as many partners as he or she wants; eighty year old men can keep several mistresses in their mansions as ‘playmates’ – the West doesn’t find any thing wrong with that even if the mistresses are old enough to be the man’s grand-daughters.
But, they come down hard and are very harsh on polygamy. A man who gets married to more than one woman, even if the women are consenting is sent to jail; how can we forget the extreme harshness that was used on the Utah polygamists!
Polygamy is normal in Africa but we have never tried to force it on Europeans or Americans. Homosexuality is alien and repugnant to us, don’t try to force it on us.
I appreciate your comment although based on your comment I do not think that you read the article carefully. I am in no way promoting homosexuality. In fact I have written against it (as well as any form of immorality).
As far as polygamy goes, that is not God’s plan either. God’s plan is 1 man and his 1 wife. Polygamy only brings/causes problems. Look at the men of the Old Testament who had multiple wives. They had many problems as a result.
Erik
You are alright . Don’t worry . Many do support you.
Sinful people always thinking that Church is attacking them.
Let’s look at the human’s law: if one commits the crime, does one speak loud and scream against the law? No . Why? because usually they shake their pants from fear.
they do not understand how it will be at the judgment day when they face the loving Father who will give so much to those who obeyed his law and also judge justly those with shaking pants .
now to:
Tukase, wash , Niki, David ,julian and more……… be aware.
God gives right to every “good” christian to speak the truth and especially to the one who commits a grave sin because true Christian does it out of love to brother-en/neighbor to save him/her from condemnation. “Good Christian” wants his neighbor in Heaven.
God and heaven is an absolute purity/perfection and there for no any kind of impurity would enter his Kingdom. You like it or you do not like it . it is your problem with God and his law and not with Eric!
the human law is for a reason . The God’s law is for a greater reason! if the law did not exist then then what for to strive to become saint ? then everyone would enter Heaven?. Then what for Jesus would become one of us and die for our “impurity” a sinful life.
those that are in prison (criminals) often do not want to change, but God loves them so much. God doesn’t want them go to hell, but unfortunately homosexuals and likewise criminals with no desire of conversion choose not God . We can only pray and cry for them.
Every one is called to live in chastity and homosexuals are too, because they not different form any of us. So like a good Christian offer his suffers to God (to fallow Christ) , the homosexuals should offer their pain and suffer and live in chastity.
There is no another way.
Be strong Eric !
All Christians (not just Catholics suffer because of that reason)
I wonder how it would be if some new “funny” group of people tried to force into Australian law to change it.
for example : “from now on a killer has a right to kill a crazy wife” they would end up in prison.
but again,
Knowing how insane society is these days may be even that would come into the force since killing unborn babies is also OK.
How great and good it is that God’s law will never change and” the gates of hell will not prevail it ”
Fiolek
I HOPE GOD HELPS YOUR IGNORANCE AND COMPLETELY INACCURATE “fact based” OPINION. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU TO NOT BE ABLE TO INFLUENCE AND HARM OTHERS. Shameful.
I find most of you messed up! God this and god that. If all that god crap had never been invented by man to make sense of the world we would all be getting along. Not the division in this world. The wars we are waging now. I can go on and on.
Humans are sexual period. You may prefer blond, short, , etc. It’s what you prefer and get aroused too. You don’t know why, you are attracted to that. Gay or straight is the same. You ARE predisposed. Fight poverty, homeless, runaway youth. Place your time energy and resources there. Who really cares if someone is gay or not. If you are not going to have sex with them, then why be concerned. Get a life that is productive and not distrustful.
Moderator’s note:
This comment is allowed because of the changes that were made to the original. Swearing is not allowed as well as indecent phrases. This comment has been modified from its original form to remove vulgar language.
I appreciate your comment although the vulgar language could be left out. In fact the Bible says that whatever a man has in his heart/mind is revealed to all through his words. You filled me in on what your mind is full of. Also the Bible says that we will give an account before God of every word that we say while on this earth so be careful with the words that you let pass between your teeth.
Most of the religions of the world are invented by man, with the exception of the one true religion that comes from God as revealed in the Bible. That religion/relationship with God was offered to mankind by God Himself. You can spot the difference between man-made religion and God’s religion. Man’s religion teaches that man must save himself through good deeds while God teaches that He saves man and the good deeds come as a result of salvation. I hope that you understand the difference. BTW, if you were to remove all religion from the world people would still not get along because of our sin nature. God is the only one who can help us with that. True peace is found only in Jesus Christ. Also, in the 20th Cent. atheists did more damage than anyone to peace so removing religion is not the answer (it has been tried and was a disaster, study history and you will learn this).
Humans are sexual because God created us that way. He also gives us instructions on how our sexuality is to be practiced. If we do it His way then we are protected and everything is great. If we step outside of His limits then we also step outside of His protection. Sex outside of God’s plan is very dangerous and destructive to the guilty and worse, to innocent victims (how many innocent people are raped and abused because of sexual immorality?)
As to poverty, HIV/AIDS plays a major role in promoting poverty. If we stop HIV/AIDS then we will be well on our way to ending poverty. I have a life that is productive, I promote the Word of God which protects people while homosexuals promote immorality which destroys, according to logic, promoting the Word of God only makes sense.
What are you doing to promote morality? What are you doing to end poverty?
If we end AIDS we end poverty?? Does that mean poverty didn’t exist until the late 1970s?? Your ignorance about all things is painful to read, please stop spreading it.
And by the way- you say gays spreading STDs (note: no apostrophe- it seems you’re no better with grammar than with every other aspect of life) harms ‘innocent’ people in society. Do you know anything about STDs? In order for you to contract one from a carrying gay man you would have to have sex with him, without doing so you are no more likely to get an infection than from a carrying straight woman you also haven’t slept with.
Just let people get on with their own lives. And here’s a radical idea, put down that 2000 year old book of yours, take a look at the world and actually make your own mind up. Think for yourself occasionally, it won’t kill you.
Where do you see that I said “if we end AIDS then we end poverty”? Are you trying to create a straw man argument so that you can attack it? If you want to accuse me of being ignorant then please have some facts/proof, or does proof not matter to you?
Thank you for editing my text for me. I need a good editor and I was hoping not to have to pay too much for one, thanks for meeting that need for me.
If a person with an STD rapes you, then you have an STD too. I just wrote an article on how an adult has infected a minor with HIV/AIDS (a homosexual male with a minor, statutory rape) I have proof. You just have, well, ignorance. Maybe you should stop spreading your ignorance instead of hypocritically accusing others of doing it?
You can live your own life but your rights end when they begin to infringe on mine (keep that in mind).
I do think for myself. I believe I have proven how you are the one who is not thinking for himself because you have bought the talking points of the homosexual agenda. Regurgitated thoughts are just gross.
Direct quote from this comment of yours that I replied to (not the main article):
‘If we stop HIV/AIDS then we will be well on our way to ending poverty’
I’d call that fairly solid ‘proof’ for you, Erik.
And yes, if a person with an STD rapes you then you have a chance of contracting that STD yourself, no one is trying to argue that fact. What does that have to do with homosexuality though? Do only homosexuals rape people?
And you have not ‘proven’ anything about me whatsoever; I have not ‘bought the talking points of the homosexual agenda’ (a statement on its own with so much wrong with it that I can’t even be bothered to explain), I have simply considered the reality of homosexuality and realised it actually has no negative impact at all on either me or society at large. The only ‘regurgitated thoughts’ are coming from your bigoted spouting of a 2000 year old, questionably-transliterated Arabic text.
Well on your way to ending poverty is not the same thing as ending poverty. For example in the USA, we spend 8 billion annually on treating STD’s (not including AIDS). If you add AIDS to the list then the numbers are astronomical. If that money were taken to purchase food for the truly poor, then we could be well on our way to ending poverty. Where is the flaw in that logic?
Do homosexuals rape? I have just posted a news report about statutory rape committed by a homosexual. What more “proof” do you need?
Since you do not deal in facts, I cannot “prove” anything to you. I am not surprised to see you write that. You regurgitate the homosexual talking points on all issues (from homosexuality to the Bible). That means that you do not even realize just how deceived you actually are.
The stats prove you wrong. Homosexuality is very dangerous to society. But, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is dead wrong. (no pun intended with the “dead”)
Do not murder is bigoted? Do not steal is bigoted? Do not commit adultery is bigoted? Do not lie is bigoted? I seem to be missing your facts. Enlighten me, please.
And just to point out: I am not gay myself and nor are any of my close friends or family members.
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Erik. I have seen numerous examples of the problems that you’ve described manifested in society. Clearly the people that have commented so far are entrenched in the popular worldview of today. From their perspective, you are insane and intolerant. However, their language, tone, and vehemence betray the true intolerance that they hypocritically blame you with. I commend you for your patient rebuttals. Keep it up!
Thank you for your kind words. I do not hate homosexuals. I do hate what their lifestyle does to others (and to themselves). I am glad that you understand that. The people who cry tolerance the loudest are usually the most intolerant people you will ever meet. Do you have a blog by chance?
I would like to kindly criticise your intolerant position towards homosexuality. It is indeed a sin and the gay people will have to account for it before God. However, I am convinced you think that gay people can as well be moral and godly people, save for their homosexuality. Moreover, they themselves acknowledging that, no one will be interested in your message, which condemns homosexuality without any care for the person itself. How about promoting christian moral values instead of accusing and judging gay people?
Thanks for reading and commenting. I appreciate all points of view even if I do not agree with all of them and if some (or many) of them are wrong. The simple fact that I do not agree with homosexuality does not make me intolerant. I have the right to disagree with someone without being called a bigot or intolerant or homophobic etc. (that is what democracy means). Plus, homosexuals are the most intolerant people you will ever find when you do not agree with them (as long as you agree with them they will be tolerant of you). I do believe that homosexuals can be saved and transformed from their sinful lifestyle. God condemns homosexuality, I do not, I just agree with God’s message. Sharing the message does not mean that you judge others. I do care for the person. I have the impression that you did not read the posts carefully (or maybe it is the language barrier). I do not condemn homosexuals or hate them. I do hate their sin (as does God). I love them with the love of God and that is why I share the message of the hope of the Gospel with them. I do promote Christian moral values everywhere that I go. I have classes and disciples who are learning Christian moral values on a daily basis. You accusation is not based on knowledge but on your presupposed ideas, which is very “intolerant” if I may say so myself.
I don’t hate fags. God hates fags. Boy, that sounds familiar.
Nice cheap insult, although not true. Like being in kindergarten again. God does not hate homosexuals. He hates the sin of homosexuality practiced by homosexuals. That is a fact. What you wrote is hog wash from someone who does not have a counter-argument to the facts.
If God hates Homosexuality, then why did God create it in the first place? And don’t say it was ‘created by Satan’ because according to Monotheistic belief, God is all knowing and all powerful. If God is all knowing, then God knows the future and as such would have KNOWN that God’s angels would rebel and Lucifer would become the source of all evil in the world. Therefore, even if Homosexuality was created by ‘The Devil’ then it’s ultimate source is a God who would know that it would come to be.
Besides, if God is ‘all powerful’ then why not just erase Homosexuality from the world? And if God ISN’T all powerful, then why worship it? Doesn’t make it much of a God does it?
God did not create anyone homosexual. Homosexuality is a choice that people make. Read up on what it means to be a homosexual, from God’s perspective.
Satan did not create anything. He chose to disobey just like homosexuals do. God did not create evil. Evil is a choice that Satan made, his angels, as well as mankind. Please do not blame God for man’s choice.
God allows free will. He could have created us as robots without a choice, but in order to truly be loved, you have to leave the choice up to the object. Mankind has chosen to disobey and reject its Creator. That does not make God any less all-knowing. It just makes mankind sinful.
I have heard your weak line of reasoning before, but since I know the Bible, I do not fall for your fallacy. Nice try though. Which book or website did you steal that argument from?
If God would not allow free will then you would complain. Since He does allow free will, you still complain. I think you are just a complainer.
Saying God created homosexuality would be like saying that God created sin, which is obviously not true!God did not create homosexuality. God created people with a free will, and they in turn took advantage of that free will, and that is where sin came from. From our sinful nature comes homosexuality. We are born with a sinful nature, but we are also given a choice to make: sin or not sin. Yes, God does know all, but if He would have cut sin out of the picture and made us totally submissive to Him, what kind of relationship would that be? God wants a genuine relationship with everyone, and one thing we have to overcome and put in His hands is our sin.
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The sweetest justice of all for your obtuse intolerance and ignorance is there’s nothing you can do to stop evolution and progress. The United States will allow widespread same sex marriage within only a few years, and you will continue to be mocked as uneducated and unenlightened for your antiquated system of beliefs. I’m sure you will just cry religious persecution and blame it the decay of society. I feel sorry for your children. God help them if they are even a little “different”. Enjoy Gay America because it’s coming, and I love it!
Well, if the mockery that you display here is a sign of “Gay America” then, woe to America. Can you please show me with some logic how I am being intolerant just because I disagree with the sin of homosexuality? I believe that you are the intolerant one, trying to force me to accept something that I do not agree with. It seems to me that “tolerance” only works one way with homosexuals (everyone who agrees with them is tolerable but if you choose to disagree, then, your intolerance will not be tolerated).
Can you please show me how knowing the dangers of homosexuality and avoiding them, as well as teaching others to avoid them, is ignorant? I believe that knowing the dangers and consequences of homosexuality, and then choosing to live that lifestyle or promoting it as you are doing, is very ignorant, but I will let you be the judge on that.
Sexual sin is a blatant sign that society is in decay. What you call “progress” is really regression. The sexual sins that are being promoted today in the name of “progress” are actually just recycled from antiquity and even before that. So, it is really regression and not “progression”. You are just too uninformed to know the difference.
Do not worry about my kids. They were born heterosexual like all humans. I will teach them to recognize ignorant ideas (like accepting homosexuality) and they will be protected from a future of pain and destruction. God can heal you and renew your mind if you will allow Him or if not, you can continue on believing in the “modern values” which are a joke. I will continue to pray for you and those who are like you.
You have every right to your opinion about homosexuality or anything else. Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to your opinion or free speech. Even the Phelps crew deserve their constitutional rights, and ,yes, I mentioned them because I’m comparing your beliefs to theirs. Your kind longs to be persecuted. I grew up in the deep south, and I’m quite accustomed to bigots. “Nigger ain’t a race it’s a lifestyle”! The surest way to stop people from listening to you is to start out by saying, “You know what your problem is…”. That’s essentially what you’re doing.
With that said, you should be held accountable like anyone else to back up your statements with fact and figures. Heart disease is by far the leading cause of death in this country, but I don’t see you sticking it to McDonald’s. No, you reserve your judgment and wrath for those things of which you have no understanding.
Aids is most prevalent in Africa where birth control is virtually non existent. Over there it has VERY little to do with homosexuality, and more to do with ignorance of modern medicine and rape. Yet, you don’t mention that. Also, studies have shown that the stigma associated with male homosexually is directly linked to HIV. Particularly in the African American community, it’s such a taboo that proper education on the subject is almost non-existent. That ignorance of basic medical and sexual knowledge is unfortunately widespread in the black community. That’s probably the reason why currently black women are the primary carriers of AIDS in this country and NOT gay men.
I in no way expect you to change your views or belief system based upon my argument, but your rebuttals are REALLY lame. You should maybe take a weekend annex in debate or something because you are terrible at it. I hope you’ll change your life, and I’ll continue to pray for you. Do you see how condescending that sounds? If your goal is to preach to the choir then congrats… you’ve got it down to a science.
Finally, your comparison of modern gay rights to historical events is laughable. If you’re really trying to compare Romans taking young boys as concubines to two adults engaging in a mutual sexual relationship, you’re really reaching. It’s a slippery slope! Lol. Most serial killers are straight, white males. Evil is evil. It doesn’t have any correlation with sexual orientation. I know you will never understand that. You’ve made up your mind and hardened your heart to the subject, and you will most likely never change your mind. That’s fine and that’s your right, but please don’t expect that you won’t be challenged on occasion. Let’s be honest. You don’t make such inflammatory statements so people WON’T comment. You like the drama as most Christians do. I’ll be praying for you! Lolz.
The “Phelps” crew is despicable so you do not need to make that comparison. The Bible’s views are far different from that garbage produced by the Phelps crew. I have no association with them and I am sad to see that they claim to be “Christians”.
Can you show me where I have said that “God hates homosexuals”? Can you show me, with my own words, where I have written that I “hate homosexuals”? If you cannot, then please stop with the false accusations.
I do not have a “kind” unless you mean “born again Christians” who live a lifestyle of obedience to God for the good of society. Homosexuals live a lifestyle of disobedience to God for the destruction of society. Please read the next article to find out specific proof. I do not seek “persecution” but it does come my way, because Jesus said that it would, and because people who love sin more than God are aggressive and always on the lookout to rail against someone who truly follows God.
Can you show me how I am a bigot? I think that you need to look up the definition of bigotry before you just throw the word around like that. Also, I want proof, not just your empty words. Empty words are cheap and you can find them anywhere, especially among “liberals” like yourself. I do not use the N word and do not appreciate it. I have many African and African American friends. Since you do not personally know me, you should avoid judgments like that. Your race is not a choice, your sexual orientation is. You seem to be confused on the subject of genetics. Maybe you should take a course on simple biology. Or, maybe you have taken one and either you did not pass or you did not pay attention.
I do have a problem with the propaganda that the homosexual movement spreads, especially to vulnerable children and teens. They present only a part of homosexuality to kids, in order to deceive them. The dangers of homosexuality are avoided at all costs, which manipulates young minds and sucks them into the traps of that diabolical lifestyle. I have ex gay friends who testify to the destructive lifestyle that homosexuals practice.
I have backed up all of my statements with facts and figures. I would encourage you to read all of the articles and pay attention to the “proof” that I have included in each one. If you want to debate me on the facts then you had better inform yourself with the facts and not the homosexual propaganda.
As far as McDonalds goes, people choose to eat there and not exercise. I do not like McDonalds and do not eat there. I do not judge homosexuals. If you would take a minute to actually read the articles that I have written, you would know that. God is their judge and He has already judged them. He has already judged all sin, in all of its forms. I am sharing the truth with homosexuals and with all people, to inform them of the truth so that they will not be deceived by the lies put out by the homosexual agenda’s propaganda machine. Also, if you see the need to fight against McDonalds, then why don’t you do something about it???, instead of using it as a cheap way to avoid the argument that we have?
About Africa, I have also written an article explaining the reason that the AIDS epidemic is growing instead of being oppressed. The reason is because of passing out condoms to people. I used stats over a 20 year period to show the connection between condom distribution and the spread of the virus. More heterosexuals are infected with AIDS than homosexuals, I know that. The reason is that your dealing with 97% of the world’s population vs. 3%. When you look at the probability of being infected with AIDS, homosexuals are much more at risk. Again, I have written extensively on this but you have not done you homework, and it shows. As far as heterosexuals being infected with AIDS, immorality has consequences and if you are an immoral heterosexual then you are at risk just like homosexuals (you can be hetero and not immoral but all homos are immoral).
Your arguments are not stepped in facts, only the talking points of the liberal left. You have been brainwashed and do not even realize it. My advice to you is to “wake up” and see the deception and embrace the facts.
Why is the homosexual movement/agenda pushing to lower the age of consent between men and boys, in the area of sexual relations? Homosexuals have a taste for young boys, they always have and always will. They are perverts and do all sorts of perverted things. Plus, if you get’em while their young then you got’em for life. Homosexuals do not reproduce, they have to make new converts so the best place to start is with the young and naive.
As far as crime goes, I have a friend on the St. Louis police force. He said that anytime there is a brutal murder and men are involved, the first line of questioning is “was there a homosexual love connection here?” Homosexuals and lesbians are very aggressive and violent, it is a fact. Many of the serial killers in the USA were homosexuals or bisexuals, in other words, sexual perverts, like all homosexuals.
Bring some better arguments next time.
Progress to be homosexual. Let continue on this trend and the world will self destruct. Homosexuality if so reprehensible. How could any educated, well thinking human being choice that lifestyle. The fact that we have intellect, and are able to reason, you would think we would make better decision than dumb animals. Proably you should read on the medical dangers of the homosexual lifestyle.
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I would like to know of all the sins specifically listed in the bible (and I’m not even including Old Testament) why so many of your blogs (and many many Christians) are dedicated to this issue. There are several sins that are obviously more likely to be detrimental to a person of your faith and lead them down a “heathen” path than being gay because these sins are more common. As you pointed out only 3% of the world is homosexual. Many of these “sins” are MUCH more likely to effect a person’s relationship with your God because they pertain to a larger population such as:
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (If we don’t abstain from unchastity, we will feel God’s vengeance.)
“3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; 4 that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; 6 that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we solemnly forewarned you. 7 For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.”
>I think we can agree that “unchastity” is a sin committed by a significant number of people, way more then 3% of the world when you add up adultery, living in sin, and just plain sex before marriage. If we are also counting sins like lust I’d say that would encompass a HUGE part of the world’s population, probably the whole 100% because name a person (besides Jesus) who hasn’t had lustful thoughts at one point or another.
1 Timothy 5:8 – (By not providing for his household, one has disowned the faith, worse than an unbeliever.)
“8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. ”
This is a pretty simple, and sadly common, issue. I found the last census that was done on the number of fathers that do not pay child support for non custodial children was 44.2% (http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/chldsupp.html). That is just in the US alone and doesn’t even include dads in jail or dads that just up and leave their families and haven’t been asked for child support. Family is a staple of Christianity and as alarming as these numbers are a huge threat to getting to the pearly gates.
Matthew 6:13-15 – (If we are unforgiving we will lose God’s forgiveness.)
“13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. 14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ”
Forgiveness is a hard thing for many of us mere mortals to do. I would venture to say every person on this planet has struggled to forgive someone in their life. According to this passage, if you do not forgive you are not forgiven, therefor cannot go to heaven.
I would question that if your ultimate goal is in fact to bring people to Christ, and not just gay bashing under the pretense of “I don’t hate this- God hates this” that your time would be better served with these or any of dozens of sins that encompass a lot more people than homosexuality.
Based on this reasoning, which is pretty obvious to lil ole me, I would conclude that while the Bible does indeed say homosexuality is a sin, it is only one sin in a LONG LONG list. It isn’t even relevant to 97% of the world. That being said I have to question why if this is not a PERSONAL issue that YOU have with homosexuality you are not dedicating all this time and effort to the issues that are really effecting the masses chances of salvation such as the above listed.
In my mind, when there is so many ripe sins for the pickin’, the sheer volume of blogs on this ONE issue (that remember only effects 3% of the world) says to me this is a problem that YOU have and are using God as a means to justify. No you NEVER said you hate gays, but I never said in the above that I am not a Christian. Molly Brown didn’t say she was a liberal. We didn’t really have to say those things straight out did we? It’s just semantics my friend, your true heart on the issue is revealed no matter what words you used to convey them.’If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is a part of yourself’. Enough said.
I am dedicated to fighting against all of the sins mentioned in the Bible. The problem with homosexuality is that it is promoted at a normality in our society today. You do not see pedophiles forming organizations an demanding their rights or marching in parades. You do not see murderers doing this or bestiality groups. It is the homosexual movement that is doing this and as Christians, we are called to be salt and light. Salt stops decay and homosexuality causes societal decay. Light exposes what is hidden in the dark, what is false, and the propaganda put out by homosexuals must be exposed for the lie that it is. When the pedophiles start holding rallies and lobbying congress then we will do the same to them.
My friend, all sin is detrimental to a persons health, the fact that homosexuals are active in promoting their propaganda makes them an open target, not because of who they are but what they do, their lifestyles and their propaganda.
Homosexuality is unchastity (pornea in the original Greek, any form of sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage between one man and one woman). All chastity is bad and must be avoided because it decays a society. I have written on the dangers of fornication. You should read what I wrote.
All of us are sinners from birth, I do not deny that, but we cannot excuse our sin by saying that we were “born” that way. We must admit the fact and turn to God for help instead of trying to convince the whole world to accept our sinful lifestyle (that is what homosexuals are trying to do).
If our society were not decaying because of immorality (homosexuality included) then there would be no need for “child support”. Married men and women would have children and raise them in a loving family instead of having a ton of single mothers everywhere.
Please do not confuse not forgiving others with confronting sin. Jesus was quick to forgive but also very quick to confront sin. He calls His followers to do the same.
Your interpretation is a bit off. That passage teaches “because we are forgiven, we will forgive others”. That is the proof that we, ourselves, have been forgiven.
Gay bashing and confronting the sin of homosexuality are 2 totally different things. I think you are either a bit confused on the issues or you have been deceived by the homosexual propaganda machine.
Again, homosexuals are openly lobbying and promoting their sinful lifestyle as something normal. They are attacking the bedrock of society, the family, and as a Christian, I see the immediate danger and I am trying to wake people out of their apathy. I do not hate homosexuals. I hate the sin that they practice and propagate, as well as the many negative consequences both in individual lives and in society. Again, God has called me to be salt and light to this world.
Finally, you do not know my heart and my motives. You are the one who is being judgmental. I am speaking out against specific actions (not motives and intentions) and have proof to back up what I write. You, on the other hand, have placed yourself in God’s position, claiming to know my thoughts and motives.
I appreciate your comments and look forward to a rational dialogue with you.
You are great at talking in circles. I’ve looked around and I notice that everyone who disagrees with you and makes valid, intellectual points is told “You didn’t read what I wrote correctly. Read more carefully.” or “read this other thing I wrote” and etc. I find it very condescending of you to tell me I am either misinformed or brainwashed because my views are different than yours. I thought I was very rational. I told you exactly how I felt and gave my reasoning for each statement I made. That is the definition of rational. I rationalized my thought process for you step by step as I would a child. Maybe YOU are somewhat uninformed and should look up the word. If you can state your opinion (and yes, it is an opinion not a fact) and invite open debate I should be allowed to voice mine even if they are in disagreement with your own.
Actually, there is a group for pedophiles called NAMBLA. There are also the KKK, and skinheads who all have groups and some rallies. I guess it won’t do me any good to try to tell you that in my estimation a group like NAMBLA is much more worthy of your attention, you seem bent on “sin hating” gay people. No matter what propaganda you say you are so worried about, numbers don’t lie, and 3% might as well be nothing. If God calls you so strongly to preach it just seems to me like you may exert that energy into something better than a victimless crime.
Think about it from this viewpoint: which is worse, homosexuality vs any of these- child abuse, domestic violence, murder, rape, drugs, hate crimes, etc. Can you really tell me gay propaganda is more decaying to society than any one of these other things (that are present in much higher numbers)? Yet the focus of your outrage is clear.
I’m simply saying maybe if you focused some of your “sin hating” at something constructive, say divorce or broken homes, you could truly make a difference in people’s lives. But in my humble opinion (I am able to admit that I hold opinions, not eternal truths) I don’t buy that your hatred of “the sin” of gayness comes from a place of love, one where you want to save a moral society from the evils of 1% of the American population, when there is so much more evil in greater numbers. You come off as very insincere and pompous. If you are a preacher you should learn to communicate to people in a way that doesn’t imply they aren’t as informed or educated as you because it’s insulting. It’s like the old saying goes…”me doth think he protest too much”…
Oh, and, I don’t think I did misinterpret that passage, it says right there “if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ” That’s pretty clear. If you don’t forgive others God will not forgive you. I don’t need any special translation techniques to decipher that.
And for the record, I didn’t say I was judging you or hated you, I just said I didn’t agree. Don’t confuse judgment with confronting someone who instead of positively uplifting large groups of people chooses to seek out a small group of people to admonish. That in itself is very telling. If I were you I might ask if I was being completely honest with myself about my motives. Looking forward to you telling me to read something else you wrote and that I didn’t read your reply carefully enough. 😀
How is making a specific point with specific examples and data to back it up talking in circles? Also, I write very specifically but the criticism is very general, things like “people like you”, “your kind” etc., There is no specific rebuttal with logical evidence, just memorized talking points. Many of the so called “counter-arguments” are disproven by the articles themselves, yet time and time again, I see the same “rebuttals” to the points I have made. I keep those prepackaged rebuttals in mind when writing, so when I see them, I know that I have already proven them wrong. It is very simple because it is the same recycled fodder over and over again.
You can have different view all day long but that does not make your views right or wrong. There is objective truth and everything that is contrary to it, is a lie, even if you believe it with all of your heart. I have written on the dangers of “relativism” and I would encourage you to read what I have written because you will see that you have bought in to the lie of relativism and need to see the dangers of it. It is for your own benefit. All the statements that I make are backed up with factual arguments and concrete evidence, so it is really not my opinion but a simple fact, take it or leave it. I never say, “this is what I think or feel” but instead I lay out the facts as they are and leave the reader to accept them or not. If you choose to accept them then great for you. If you choose to reject them, then that is your choice, a wrong one, but still yours to make. Just do not forget that every choice has consequences, either negative or positive, depending on the choice.
Please understand that NAMBLA and the homosexual movement are good friends. They want the same things. I know about them and have studied them well. I did not say that they do not exist but I mentioned that they are not out in the streets with public (offensive) parades as well as trying to get into the public schools to “inform” children of their practices. I despise NAMBLA’s actions as well, because it is sin and they want to destroy lives, just like homosexuals. NAMBLA is made up of homosexuals. I know the homosexual propaganda machine wants us to believe that man-boy love is not homosexuality but it is, as God has defined homosexuality. You can be deceived by the propaganda or not, that is your choice. If homosexuality were not to exist, then NAMBLA would not be around either. BTW, that 3% has great influence, position, and power as well as the fact that many of the 97% have believed the lies and also promote the lifestyle of the 3%. There is much more than 3% lobbying for the homosexual movement. Homosexuality is not a victimless crime. The article gives you a victim, a minor whose life has been ruined by the sin of homosexuality. With your “argument” you have proven my point, you need to pay more attention to the article and not just the title. You have contradicted yourself.
I understand why you call rational arguments and a call to rationality “condescending”. It is because we live in a culture that preaches “tolerance” (false tolerance), your argument is true for you and mine is true for me. It does not matter if it is right or wrong, just as long as you believe it. There are no winners and losers, we do not keep score and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the game. This is very irrational thought. There is a right answer and a wrong one. There is truth and there are lies. If you avoid confrontation that does not mean that everyone is right. In each argument, there is a rational one and there is an irrational one. The rational one wins, every time, even if we no longer “keep score”. Do you understand what I am saying? It is hard to overcome our cultural teachings (even if they are wrong and even if we are shown how wrong they are). I hope that you will see the objective truth in things and not be deceived by relativism and the subjectivity of everything (the doctrine of our modern Western culture).
Many of society’s problems would be resolved very quickly if immorality were wiped out and people believed and lived by the Truth that God offers. If murder were swiftly punished with the death penalty (something that I have written about already) then the murder rate would fall and the number of victims would decrease. If rape were also punished with the death penalty as God says, then the number of multiple rapes would turn to zero over night (you cannot commit a second rape if you were put to death for the first one). Again, I have written on this. So again, to answer your question, I am against sin in all of its forms. Your argument is a non-argument because you are trying to deflect to something that I have also written about. Nice try though. I know the tactics my friend so do not think that you can get me with them.
As far as interpretation goes, there are rules for interpreting any type of literature, as the Bible is literature. If you want to come to the correct understanding, then you need to apply these rules, like context, both in the immediate passage, the book, and the entire Bible, as well as cultural context and the original languages. When you take all of this into account and study the passage on forgiveness, as well as all of the cross-references on the topic of forgiveness then you see that we forgive because God has forgiven us. Just like we love because He has first loved us. It is the same principle.
Telling me what I feel or my motives for doing something is definitely judgment. You cannot see my motives, only God can do that.
Thanks for commenting again. I really enjoy doing this.
Two Words: Latent Homosexuality
Do you guys not have a better argument than that when you are defeated with the facts? I get to this point with every person who backs homosexuality. Instead of attacking the argument (which you have proven that you cannot do) you start gutter sniping (trying to attack me instead of the argument). It is a lame tactic and shows your lack of intellectual integrity. Maybe you should take some courses on logic and debate for better results next time.
^Doublespeak
Would you care to elaborate?
Wow that was a weak defense to everything I pointed out. You keep on talking but it’s obvious you don’t have any reason why you focus on homosexuality instead of something that actually could lead a lot more people to God -other than a hidden agenda. I believe I provided percentages of gay america versus percentages of other “sinful groups” and that is proof enough that you focus on a small group of people who don’t want your help vs a large group that could benefit greatly from it. What would Jesus pick in that situation? I read your “how to debate effectively” or something and I saw how you went on and on about sticking to the issues at hand and not making personal attacks. Telling me I have no integrity and I need to take courses on logic seems sort of personal, so If i were you I would look into that. I also find it laughable that you would say I need logic courses when you believe in a talking snake, burning bushes, virgin birth, walking on water, and resurrection from the dead to name a few. Which are all proven impossibilities that a logical mind would reject as fast as they would the tooth fairy. People used to think the earth was flat too, if that was written in the Bible I bet you’d say scientists were lying about it being round.
I realize that it probably works for you a lot to tell people how they don’t know enough about “this” and “that” and need courses in this and that and don’t read carefully enough and whatever you can say to convince them they are the idiot because you don’t have a good rebuttal. THAT is a LAME tactic, especially with someone like me who is obviously smarter and more rational than you. If you want to tell me how illogical and unintelligent I am, two can play at that game. You might as well be worshiping Horus, Mithra, Buddha, or Krishna because they all sprang from the same legend and most of them before the time of Jesus. Virgin birth, baptism, walking on water, resurrection. Sound familiar? Must just be a coincidence.
I have seen a lot of people like you in my day, and the bottom line is you get off on being “enlightened”, on telling other people how they should live their life or burn in hell. On having “divine knowledge” and being “called by God”. It’s a sickness. If I say God told me to sacrifice my daughter to him then I’m crazy, but it was cool for Abraham. The hypocrisy never ends.
Again, you skip over the vast information that I have written about the “other” sins that you keep pointing out homosexuality. Does the fact that I write about homosexuality bother you? Why is that?
Intellectual integrity is seen through your writing, not an attack on your person. You may be a person of integrity (I hope so) yet in the area of intellectual integrity, you have lots of room for improvement.
BTW, do you not know that Jesus spoke about homosexuality and condemned it? He agreed with the punishment poured out on Sodom and Gomorrah and said that others will receive it as well if they do not repent. I am doing as Jesus (my Master) did. He confronted sin in all of its forms, especially sexual sins.
By the arguments, or non-arguments that you make, I should advise you to take a logics class (I, myself, took 2 of them while in college). I know how to reason and state the facts because of it. It helped me and would do the same for you too. I am sorry if that were offensive to you, I did not mean it that way but if it came off that way then I apologize. God performed all of the miracles mentioned (walking on water, water into wine, virgin birth, etc., there were people who experienced it and testify to it, we can believe it or not, that is our choice). With all of the evidence that we have from history in written form and the archeological artifacts, we have more than enough proof that what is written in the Bible is true so we can believe the facts about the resurrection (we have 2 accounts, Lazarus, Jesus Himself). BTW, the One who created the elements (water) also rules over them and for Him walking on water is no problem. The fact that He allowed Peter to do it is a miracle. If it were just Jesus who did it that would be one thing, but we have personal evidence from Peter himself. Anyway, that is another line of reasoning all together. As far as a talking snake, I assume that you believe in macro evolution, the snakes 6,000 years ago were a little different from what we have today (they walked for one thing). I do not believe in macro-evolution but I find it funny that those who do, usually bring up the “talking “ snake argument, things change over time right?
I find that those who usually put down the Bible or claim that it is a book full of contradictions are not trained in literature and do not have the tools to study and interpret a passage. They just recycle what someone else has “claimed” about the Bible instead of taking time to study the so called contradictions with an open mind to see if there is a contradiction or not. I apologize if I categorized you like that and you are not. Your arguments seemed to come from that perspective. I have discussed with many people over the years on these topics and I see the same pattern repeat over and over again. No offense.
I do not hate you and I am not against you. I am against sin and lies. We are surrounded by both and frankly, I am sick of it and sick of people who are deceived and do not even know it. I was once like that but I am so glad that God changed me. That is why I am so passionate about what I do.
You wrote “Horus, Mithra, Buddha, or Krishna” as if Jesus is a myth with them. There is so much historical evidence about Jesus yet you keep to the lame talking point (like Bill Maher). You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the historical man Jesus to the other legends.
I hope you are an intelligent person. Intelligent people can have irrational and unintelligent arguments though. I have seen them from, the same ones that I have seen before. They just keep getting recycled even though they have been disproven time and time again.
You can live however you want to live. I am telling you of the consequences because God tells us of them. We can stick our fingers in our ears and pretend that we do not hear them and that they will not happen if we do not hear, but that is not the case. Sticking you head in the sand to avoid your enemies does not make them go away, it makes you look, well, ignorant.
Yeah your right, you keep giving me silly circular reasoning and I keep giving you what science has proven to us about everything we know in the world. I’m sure you do hear these arguments a lot, that’s because they are based in fact and fact doesn’t go away just because it doesn’t fit in a really old book written by a bunch of men on a righteous kick.
I’m offended by your gay bashing because I have a lot of gay and lesbian friends, and they are all wonderful people. None of them have ever had any kind of agenda. They pretty much want to be left alone like all people. They live good and productive lives as your nurses, managers, bankers, etc. None of them are involved in anything I would associate with what a bad person would be like.
I talk about Jesus like he is just another myth because I’m not sure that he wasn’t. But if he did exist I know for certain that he was just a cult leader, maybe a nice one but still one at that. Just because it’s a large cult doesn’t mean it isn’t a cult all the same. I think you should take some classes as well. I would recommend mythology, science, and ethics then retake those logic classes.
What scientific “fact” have you given me? Still looking for that. When you have proof of macro evolution using the complete scientific method then please let me know. Plus, let the “scientists” know as well because they have not yet reached your enlightenment.
The letters of the Book were written by men but the message is God’s. Think of the probability, 44 different men from 3 different language groups from 3 different continents over 1,600 year period, yet there are no contradictions what so ever. The central purpose of the entire Book is the same without one flaw. That would be impossible for one person to do, much less a group of so many different kinds of people. There, I just gave you some real facts, what are you going to do with them?
How is not agreeing with a homosexual’s lifestyle “gay bashing”? Do I not have the right to disagree? I thought we have the right to free speech and free ideas in America? Or, is that only for those who want to promote immorality (like homosexuals)?
If they want to be left alone, as you say, then why do they try to organize “pride” parades all over the world? Why do they want curriculum in public schools and places that teach about their “lifestyle”? They want to destroy the foundation of society by attacking traditional marriage. They step into the public square, wanting to be protected from criticism while they can critic everyone (especially Christians). You have a double standard and you do not even realize it. I do not hate gay people. They can be forgiven and transformed just like I was. I want them to have the same opportunity. At the same time, I must stand for what is right and inform people of the dangers of homosexuality. The proof is in the pudding as the expression goes. The stats show how dangerous homosexuality is.
Now you label me a bad person, just because I take a stand, not very politically correct of you. Homosexuals do not want to impact me, they are focusing on my children, which infuriates me. Come and take me on, I can distinguish between my right and left hand (a Biblical expression) but my kids cannot (this is a figure of speech which means that they do not have discernment, or in other words, they are ripe for the picking to indoctrinate into the homosexual agenda).
Jesus was much more that a leader. Read the claims that He made. All that He claimed has come to pass or will shortly. You will be amazed at what you see.
I have had mythology, science, and ethics from both secular and religious teachers. I know how a teacher can take the info and put his spin on things (not really caring what the facts are). But thanks for the advice.
So, if I’m understanding you correctly, the Bible is perfect because it has no mistakes in it. If we see mistakes, we’re just misinterpreting the Scripture. Can’t you see how that could look like a rationalization to someone on the outside, looking in?
On a side note, do you always read the Bible in its original languages? If not, then how do you know that you aren’t mistaken in your understanding of the Scripture regarding homosexuality?
You wrote “If we see mistakes, we’re just misinterpreting the Scripture.”
If you have studied the so called “mistake” in context keeping in mind the original language, cultural context, and applied the tools to interpreting literature, and then still see the “mistake” then we can talk. If you read something on a website or out of a book that claims the mistake yet fail to check for yourself according to the above process, then yes, you are misinterpreting Scripture. I know you do not want to admit that you do this, but it is true. I seriously doubt that as you were systematically studying the Bible, you came across the “mistakes”.
BTW, my brother went to USA for his med degree.
It’s a good school for medical degrees. Not so much for anything else. I had to drag an education out of them kicking and screaming.
Actually, I do “read” in the original languages. I use an online Romanized Hebrew OT and a Greek NT, and then I use Strong’s “Exhausting” Concordance.
Good job, keep studying the Bible and you will be amazed at what It will do to your life. There is more to it than just the original languages. You also need to use the tools for interpreting literature, as well as keeping in mind, the cultural context and the context of the passage (immediate, as well as Biblical).
I read the Bible quite a bit. In fact, one of my New Year’s resolutions was to read the KJV this year, as it’s the 400th anniversary of its publishing.
So far I’ve seen no difference other than that I’m even more frustrated with the translators.
I am not a fan of the KJV. I prefer the NASB. It is a literal translation from the original languages but much easier to read.
Also, there is a huge difference between just reading and actually studying the Bible. There a very good method to help. I use it.
“I do not believe in macro-evolution”
What stops the small steps of micro-evolution from accumulating enough to become macro-evolution?
In biology, we see variation of species (big dogs and little dogs, but they are both dogs). Change over time occurs but not macro, there is no proof, only theory.
I would also like you to study the definition of rational. ‘proceeding or derived from reason or based on reasoning’. Please leave rationality to the people who use their brains and scientifically proved evidence instead of a 2000 year old book written in the dark ages. I can’t think of anything we still cleave to from the bronze ages except the Bible. And there is a reason for that.
Same goofy remark. I am sure you would not say the same of Plato or other Greek literature which in some cases is older than parts of the Bible. A book that teaches morality, love your neighbor, and betters a society is irrational while the modern age has led to rampant divorce, single mothers, and the total decay of the family and society. Which is better when you look at the facts?
Same silly arguments. Would we like to revisit the number of people murdered in the name of Christianity? Why do we not do that anymore? The “modern age” you speak so distastefully of has progressed beyond it (for the most part). Last time I checked single mothers didn’t go around slaying people who refused to be single mothers. In fact religion has been used as a large factor to create war for as long as we’ve had the written word. And Christianity has certainly had its fair share of dogs in that fight…
A logical mind sees that there is no point in this. Today’s society is greater than it has ever been because of “the modern age”. Modern science has brought us plentiful food, modern technology (which you freely enjoy), medicine to extend our life spans greatly. You totally rely on these things in your everyday life, these TRUE miracles, but when it comes to the scientific opinion that doesn’t mesh with your religion…they suddenly have no idea what they are talking about. Man’s gall never ceased to amaze me.
And I will address your above but while I’m on the subject I’d like to point out scientists would agree evolution is a thing that takes millions of years, and if you are saying that snakes de-evolved from talking to showing no signs or evidence for ever having such a skill in just six thousand years…I’m going to tell you that is super silly 😛
I knew that one was coming (the people “murdered” in the name of Christianity). Classic rebuttal, but not well thought out. 1) Many of the wars of the Crusades (I am sure that is part of what you had in mind) were due to direct attacks by the Muslims on innocent Christian of the East. They appealed to the Western Christians for help because they were being slaughtered by the religion of peace (which I find ironic). The problem is that revisionist liberal historians are not interested in the facts and instead want to paint Medieval Christians as monsters which they were not. 2) Some bad people did some bad things in the name of Christianity. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually a Christian. Jesus warned of that 2,000 years ago, from the very beginning. So please do not confuse people who say that they were/are Christians and people who actually were/are. A person who claims to be a Christian yet lives contrary to God’s Word, may wear the title, but he is not the real thing. Jesus explained that we will know true Christians by their deeds (as well as the false, also by their deeds). So, just like you try to blame God for man’s sins, here you are trying to blame true Christianity for the actions of unbelievers who did some terrible things while “claiming” to be Christian. Christianity is not a title it is a lifestyle. You can claim to be it but if you do not live it then, you just have empty words.
As far as single mothers go, I am not talking about individual cases but the movement as a whole. There is enough statistical proof to show the high crime rate among the children from single mothers. I would recommend that you read this. You may mock the author but try to disprove her stats from chapter 2. Single motherhood has led to many murders in this country. Just take a look at the facts. I am not against single mothers as people, but the worship of single motherhood and the destruction that the movement has brought and is bringing is unbelievable. Because of it, innocent people are at risk on a daily basis of becoming victims of terrible crimes. Again, actual proof of the decay that “modern values” bring along with their supposed “progression”.
Please do not confuse Christianity with religion. Christianity is not a religion but a relationship with God that changes a person from the inside out (his character, attitude, and values). Religion is a tool used to deceive people. Christianity is a relationship that enlightens and informs people. When I say Christianity is not a religion or a tool, I am not talking about the Catholic Church, or the Orthodox Church or any major religious institution. I am talking about Biblical Christianity, what Jesus Christ founded and the apostles spread, as revealed in the Bible. If that is lived out then love and peace prevail. People would serve one another instead of being egotistical and selfish and society would be impacted and changed for the better.
I agree that modern science has brought some benefits. But I also see that modern science is not the answer to all of our problems. With all of the food, we still cannot get along with each other. With all of the modern medical practices, we are still killing ourselves with STD’s. What good is a long life span if you are miserable and depressed the entire time. God wants to gives us many days on this earth, but not just life, He wants to give us abundant life to where we actually enjoy those many days. Depression is the “disease of the 21st Cent.”, even though we have unbelievable ways of communication, people actually communicate less, remain isolated, and live out their days in misery. It is not looking too good for this “modern” world. I see the results. I counsel the people who have it all and yet are miserable. I counsel the people who have nothing but want it all, and they are also miserable.
I do not understand why you seem to think that I am against science. I love science (it came from God) and helps us understand the world around us and once again adds more proof that we have a Creator who made us and all that is around us, and gave it to us to enjoy.
There is evidence that man is not getting better but worse (genetically speaking on evolution). Our genes are breaking down with each new generation that moves away from the original, perfect creation. The natural world around us screams of a young Earth, yet so called “scientists” (not all scientist believe in an old Earth or macro evolution) have their minds made up based on 19th Cent. science that they earth is millions of years old (although it cannot be proven by the steps of the scientific method, give it a try if you doubt me) and any proof that does not match up is disregarded and lack of proof is explained away by “we will eventually discover the evidence to support our premise”. That my friend, is not science.
Yo, you’re mad … (edited because of foul language) by dumb.
Everything that was needed to be said was already said by the comments below me. I’m just reiterating.
Above*
Whoopsies.
Can you give an example to me?
Haha, you see, it’s funny because there is no God.
And your proof is . . . ???? That’s what I thought!!!
After working for the health department and specifically with people who have HIV, I can safely say that is the most ignorant thing I have ever read. First of all, homosexuality is genetic. If your god exists, then he made homosexuals. Good thing he doesn’t. We know too much about how the world was created now that we don’t have to blame it on an ignorant being as described in the bible. Secondly, if you ever get a chance you should volunteer at a HIV testing site so you can see HIV has nothing to do with homosexuality. It all has to do with biology. Do yourself a huge favor so you don’t go down in history looking like a complete moron and take a couple of sceince classes as well. Sexual repression is man made. If god cared about who was having sex with who, he wouldn’t have created free will and the orgasim. It is men who desire to police everyone elses sex life.
Do you have scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic? Please, enlighten the world because scientists are still looking. You must have a secret that they do not.
As a health department worker, I know you have sin the disastrous effects of sexual immorality (homosexuality included). I have the stats from the health departments and know all about the problems in the wake of the sexual revolution.
God made humans. Homosexuals choose to be the way that they are . Sexuality is a choice people make every single day. There is no gay gene (although it is searched for night and day).
Do you have proof that God does not exist? (or just empty words)
What, in the Bible, is ignorant (please do not bring the weak argument that the Bible says that the earth is flat, I expect better of you as a state worker)?
HIV has to do with biology? Are we now born HIV positive? Last I checked, the main road to HIV is littered with the propaganda of “safe” sex and “safer” sex. Sexual immorality leads to HIV/AIDS in the vast majority of cases. Prove me wrong with evidence!
Sex is a beautiful gift from God to a husband and wife to be enjoyed within the safe confines of marriage. Anything outside of this is sexual immorality and leads to death and destruction. Check the facts next time.
BTW, what hope do you give to people who are HIV positive other than, here is your death sentence?
Current research has shown that multiple factors has a significant influence on sexuality.
For example, prenatal environmental conditions have shown to have a significant link to gender preference.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771.long
May I point out the phrase “gender preference”. That still means that it is a CHOICE.
May I point out that it doesn’t say ‘gender preference’ anywhere in the research paper. What it does say is this: “These results support a prenatal origin to sexual orientation development in men”. That was a strange answer you gave. Are you implying that fetuses choose to be homosexual? You have repetitively stated that homosexuality is a choice. Shouldn’t we base our arguments, and come to informed conclusions based on the scientific method? I am open to the hypothesis that sexual orientation is a lifestyle choice, but articles like this one are providing substantial evidence that that is not the case.
Eric Eric Eric.
Bro, what are you on about
there is no God!
And your evidence???
“The fool has (A)said in his heart, “There is no God ”
Did you know that you were in the Bible?
Seems to me this guy is the biggest homo of them all. If you substitute Every time he says god, with the word … (edited for language) . This guy def has a problem with … (edited for the same reason). Im only trying to save you Erick.
Childish argument. I left those in kindergarten. One of your buddies has already tried that lame route and it did not work then. Go find some other 5 year old kids to play with if you cannot do any better than that.
Hey called you God! That’s so blasphemous!
Did you go out and call up all of your buddies to attack? It is quite funny.
Oh no I would never do that. I simply shared your link so you could spread your message to the non believers…isn’t that what God wants you to do? By the way, they don’t have logic class at Northwest Mississippi Community College 🙂 You are a complete and utter tool and are the reason I’m ashamed of being from the south.
I see you have been doing some research. Good job, but you fell a bit short. Did you try Delta State? Or maybe Midwestern? They do have logic classes.
I am glad that you brought all of your friends. I am once again convinced that homosexuals and their promoters all subscribe to the same brainwashing. Also, the hatred and foul language was another reminder of how homosexuals think alike and act alike. I am glad that you guys entered the site. When you stand before God on judgment day, He will remind you that He gave you an opportunity to turn to Him when you read what I wrote.
No research, I’ve met you bro I know what kind of tool you are. Good luck with your homo erotic tendencies. You bore me and God can K my A and if he has something to say I welcome him to say it to my face.
Keep living, one day you will meet Him face to face. If you are in your current state, it will not be fun for you. You can avoid that judgment if you would humble yourself and repent of your sins. I am just the messenger. You decide what to do with the message.
And sorry about that, you were just such an idiot I figured you’d never be able to get into a 4 year since you went to community college because you weren’t smart enough for university. I guess they lowered there standards a bit, lucky you!
I went to community college to play sports. Again, you make judgments based on things that you know nothing about. I have a degree from a 4 year University.
Being sexually irresponsible puts you at a greater risk for contracting STDs than any given sexuality which is NOT a choice. When was the last time you consciously CHOSE to be turned on by a woman or a man or whatever you find attractive? You can’t recall something like that because it isn’t a conscious decision.
You need to cite sources if you’re going to make wild claims about all these percentages, too. Like the whole thing about Holland – where did you get this information? Find the article, link to it and then we’ll talk about its legitimacy. You can’t just throw out all of these numbers, tell everyone that they should believe you and that it’s fact then not expect to back up your claims with any solid evidence. Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true, so you need to show where someone who knew what they were talking about or participated in these studies made all of these findings. However, I would like to say that in many highly civilized countries depression and suicide are generally higher for the entire population, regardless of whatever strife they endure in their day-to-day lives and I’m feeling that that number is just the general population percentage that was applied to a smaller group just to make it seem like it’s only the homos that’ve got it bad when it’s actually everyone.
Also, you don’t know what love is. So, stop talking about it like you do.
❤ Dani
Sexuality is a choice. Gender is not a choice, I think you have confused the two things. Sexual immorality is bad if you are hetero or homo, they both put you at risk for STD’s and death. You risk is much greater if you are a homo (check the stats). I am not an animal who is controlled by instinct. I am in control of my desires. That is a weak argument. It may work when talking about dogs but not with people (unless you want to say that homosexuals are like dogs, not being able to restrain themselves).
I have cited sources in ever article that I have written. If not in the immediate article then I send a link to an article that has the stats (don’t need to reinvent the wheel every time). Pay more attention next time (or actually read the articles).
I have a wife whom I love with 2 beautiful children so please do not tell me that I do not love or do not know what it is. You do not know me and therefore are being very judgmental (how ironic).
Suicide and depression are terrible but can be avoided. The more “advanced” a nation gets, the farther people tend to move from God, creating a vacuum in their lives that leads to depression and suicide. You help reinforce my point, thanks. Homosexuals run from God and have the same problem so it is actually quite logical. Maybe you did not think through your argument enough.
I will check the link and repost it. I know that I have it. There could have been a tech breakdown.
Hello. You wrote, “the more advanced a nation gets, the farther people tend to move from God, creating a vacuum in their lives that leads to depression and suicide.” What source did you use, so that I can verify your statement that depression and suicide rates are a direct cause of not having God in your life? I’m assuming you are using some sort of study but were other variables considered like health, education, economic status, population, family relationships, race, gender, geography, etc. Statistics show that the US in the most religious (believing in a God) industrialized country; however, we have one of the highest murder rates amongst industrialized nations. I don’t think it would be fair to say that because of our belief in God, we’re one of the most murderous nations. You seem to be using this argument for the causality you mention between lack of faith in a God and suicide and depression rates. I believe that it has been proven that clinical depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain (may be evidence that man is not such a perfect creation.) Also you can’t compare suicide rates of today with suicide rates in ancient times (when Jesus wasn’t around) because the data isn’t available for ancient times.
A few other comments I have. You mentioned that the Bible is the word of God and is inerrant. Have you ever read anything by Bart D. Ehrman? He’s a distinguished professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina. I’ve read two of his books, Jesus, Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus. The first written works concerning Jesus were written some 40 – 60 years after the death of Jesus and the works have been transcribed for hundreds of years with quite a few changes–some significant and some not so significant. Some on purpose and some scribe mistakes. Ehrman’s books might be a hard read for you because it has been my experience that people of faith don’t like to read anything that might alter the scope of their beliefs. Erik you sound like a dominionist or fundamentalist so you may not believe any arguments that question your beliefs; however, they are good reads.
Your beliefs about homosexuality are grounded in the Bible but how do you know that the men who wrote the passages about homosexuality weren’t themselves repressed homosexuals? Ted Haggart comes to mind. Isn’t this a possibility? It seems to me that people that are so focused on homosexuality are sometimes homosexual themselves.
I have to say, God seems cruel to me. He creates imperfect humans, gives them free will, subjects them to eternal hell when they don’t follow his demands, and seems to have an ego that needs constant stroking. I don’t think I want to spend eternity with someone like this.
If God wanted everyone to believe in Him, why didn’t he just create people that automatically believe in Him? Why does he need to test our faith? To me it’s like placing a bowl of candy in front of a three year old, reading them a book that says, “don’t eat the candy”, leaving the room, the kid eats the candy, and the parents severely beat the child for not obeying. If I did this as a parent, the creator of my children, wouldn’t it be awful?
Well, I’ve really gotten off topic.. It has been enlightening reading all the discussion.
I appreciate the fact that you took time to read the article and comment.
I was referring to Western European Countries, where the number of church buildings is decreasing every year as dying or dead churches are being turned in to bars and pubs. There is a more current example in Japan, where 84% of the population claims not to have a personal religion and 64% claim not to believe in the existence of God. They are an extremely advanced nation yet their “advancement” seems to have taken them far from God.
Please do not confuse religious people with genuine Christians. Just because a group of people claim to be religious or “believe” in God (which god, their version of who they think He is, or the One who has revealed Himself through the Holy Scriptures), that does not make them genuine. What is the connection between the theory about God and the practice? In other words, do they live according to the Scriptures or do they claim to believe in God yet live like they please. Are they “nominal” in their faith? Is it a faith they were born into or is it their own personal faith in God (i.e. they are born again Christians through a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ). These are all things that must be taken in consideration. I live in a country where almost 97% of the pop claims to be Christian yet very few people have any clue what Christianity is all about and there is a giant disconnect between religion and lifestyle. I am not impressed when someone says “I am a Christian because I was born in a Christian family in a Christian nation”. One it is not Biblical. You have to be adopted into the family of God (all true Christians), you cannot inherit it. You have to make your own personal choice.
With suicide and depression, I have a clear case. Homosexuality develops quickly in the more advanced societies (because of the promotion of it). Homosexuals are do not have anything to do with God. They are enemies of God, of themselves, and of mankind (this is what God says about them, I happen to agree because I see the evidence). Even in advanced societies where they (homosexuals) have “freedom” (what they call freedom and actual freedom are 2 different things) their depression and suicide rates are still very high. I can send a link to you if you would like.
There are cases of depression that are caused by a chemical imbalance, I agree, but it is not the blanket, cart blanc for all. Secondly, you cannot judge man’s creation based on what you see today. That would be like going to a junk yard and saying, people must build cars to be like this. That is obviously not true but if you base your entire argument only on what you saw at a junk yard then you could reach that conclusion. Man was created perfect. Man messed himself up by sinning. He invited imperfection into his life.
I missed the bottom half of the comment the first time.
The Gospel of Matthew was written before 70 A.D. and it contains specific prophecy that was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Plus, I understand where you are going with the argument and Ehrman as well. If you would take time to actually read the Scriptures instead of what others “say” about the Scriptures, you would see something very interesting. I do not have a problem with reading outside sources but I want to be very familiar with the actual source so not to be deceived by what someone else writes about it. Here is passage of Scripture that ties up the question that you raise.
You seem to want to blanket all Christians who speak out about the dangers of homosexuality by using one man’s example. He made his own choice yet there are many more who do practice what they preach. Homosexuals claim that they cannot be judged on the actions of other homosexuals yet that is what they do to Christians in the case of Ted. It is an obvious double standard. I am not a homosexual. I struggled with sexual sins before becoming a Christian and I know the dangers of immorality in any form, be it homo, be it hetero. I am against the action and not the person himself.
God did not create imperfect humans. You see, your logic and arguments are flawed from the beginning, leading of course to incorrect conclusions. Hell was not created for humans (you really need to dust off the Good Book my friend). God does not need to test our faith, He already knows what we are going to do. He gives us free will out of His compassion. He could have created us as robots but He did not (I say we are the beneficiaries).
Sir, you are dangerous for our health– it is thanks to people such as yourself with such absolutist views that society is as … (edited for extremely foul language, seems to be common among homosexuals and those who support their views) up as it is. Do you think you are representing your god’s truth and his word? I believe you are just hiding behind such things to mask your blatant homophobia and insecurity. Gays and lesbians are as promiscuous as heterosexuals. It’s called having a healthy sex life and actually living. You have no right to go around telling people what to do– you seriously sicken me.
In this day and age you cannot get away with writing intellectual garbage like this to trash a group in society– regardless of how strongly you feel about the ‘wrong’ they are doing. Well,the whole world does not adhere to your bigoted norms and dogmas, and it certainly is better of without them. Ideas like yours have cost thousands of lives. And I am sure you are okay with pogroms and genocide and wars in the name of religion–you,sir,are tribal and medieval.
There is no factual proof to back up any of your claims–only,perhaps,from a very select few pseudo-scientists who would call the Bible accurate. So called ‘studies’ and data that has been fabricated to serve your purposes.
You are entitled to your beliefs,as long as you do not come into my life and tell me that I am going to be miserable if I do not follow your Lord and Saviour and become heterosexual. That is a very narrow view of the world–one that belongs in the bronze age,amidst tribes and animal sacrifice. This is a modern and civilised society. You cannot go around burning people or putting them down because you lack the balls to respect them.
Same non arguments, maybe you should read some of the previous arguments because you are just recycling the same talking points that I have already addressed.
You can live anyway you please but your lifestyle has consequences. Also, when your sin has an impact on my life then I do have the right to tell you what to do, your rights end where mine begin.
As far as wars in the name of religion. It has been addressed so read up and you will get your answer. I am tired and reinventing the wheel (you guys have the same weak arguments recycled over and over again).
Read the stats to see the proof. If you do not like the proof then that is your problem but you cannot explain away facts, sorry, nice try though.
You are the one who came here, I did not come to you.
Our modern civilized society is not doing so well. Take a look around. Plus, I have already addressed this issue.
every human is bisexual. just like all the other species of animals which have intercourse with pleasure as a result. even you would find it impossible not to reach climax with something in your anus. because there is a gland there which makes it pleasurable for everyone. and your wife is stimulated, whether it shows or not, by the heady pheromones of other females while they’re all ovulating, which is why and how menstrual cycles link up. if there is a heaven, it will be a place where god says, “wow, i’m glad you’re here, now you can be your TRUE self,” and then you will be fellated by many men and your wife will watch you with soulful and truly happy eyes as she tastes of the vaginas of the angels. lol.
No doc ever says, “congrats you gave birth to a little bisexual” instead “you have a boy or girl”. Therefore, you are born heterosexual. If you choose to practice homosexuality or bisexuality, that is your choice. I do not disagree with that. The choice is the sin.
As far as the dangers of anal intercourse (in any form) I would advise you to study the medical facts. I can send them to you if you would like.
Angels are always refereed to as males so there are no female angels. Your idea is just a dream world.
Oh my God! The doctor says congratulations on your girl/boy THEREFOR you are born hetero!! That is just genius rationale right there. What a complete and utter fail.
Still waiting for your proof of the gay gene. How long should I hold my breath???
The same amount of time as you will be waiting for Jesus to come back 🙂
So you have no proof, thought so.
So you admit there is no proof that Jesus is coming back? Hallelujah!
Where do you get that idea? I asked if you had proof of the gay gene. I know Jesus is coming back. He came the first time according to the Scriptures and He will come back again, also according to the Scriptures.
*for
Where the hell is your proof! The only argument you give for the Bible being infallable is because it’s too perfect! Lol. Does that sound like fact or opinion to you? The reason we say you use circular logic is because every answer for you is it’s in the Bible, and your answer for why to believe the Bible is true is because it says it is. Whenever anyone points out ANY inconsistencies (thereby voiding the perfection of said fiction) you go on a five paragraph diatribe and manipulate the very meaning of words and statements that are clear to even the most simple of minds. I saw you try and justify child murder! Where is your justification for Lott sleeping with his daughters? Wasn’t he the holiest man in Sodom and Gommorah? That was after he tried to give those daughters to a lynch mob in order that they might be raped instead of an angel. I guess his daughters were the reward for his pleasing God. Ewe. What about Deuteronomy 22:23-24 where it says a betrothed virgin shall be stoned to death if she doesn’t yell loud enough if she is raped? The list of atrocities goes on and on, and you seeking to justify these things is one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen. I’d have tons more respect for you if you would just admit that certain parts of the Bible were relevant in their time, and that is why we do not apply them today. Also I saw you try to justify the crusades because “they were attacked” or some bs, but what about the Spanish Inquisition and other similar movements. Oh, I know! They weren’t REAL christians. Well, there’s no way to prove that now is there so we’ll just have to agree that regardless whether that’s a valid point or not it was this gentle, benevolent religion that fueled the fire and served as the motivation for such vile, inhumane acts. It’s really is a sad life you lead. But you will not be swayed by reason so mockery is the next best thing. If there is an afterlife, I’ll be there and I’m gonna bust your balls so hard. It’s gonna be epic.
Yeah, Lot’s poor wife turns into a pillar of salt of looking behind her, and he not only offers up his daughters to be raped, but after God smites the wife gets to bang them. I’ve never heard a more inspiring tale of mortality and justice for all!
Do you know why Lot’s daughters were so messed up? Because they lived in a city where homosexuality was the rage of the day. It was promoted and practiced openly. That type of behavior had a negative impact on all the citizens, even the righteous ones like Lot. He made a stupid choice to live there. Then his family was negatively influenced by the homos and all of the sexual immorality. He, himself, was also impacted in a negative manner. He was willing to offer his 2 daughters to be raped by homos. Then he got drunk and his daughters slept with him.
Please do not blame God for man’s stupidity. The example is a warning to stop the spread of sexual immorality (homosexuality) before it negatively influences you. Plus, God does not pull any punches. He shows the depravity of mankind as it is. We are not good people apart from Him (without His help).
Thanks for bringing that up for me to help you understand.
Also I like Job’s story. Remember he had the most faith in God of anyone in the world and was a loyal servant through and through, and Satan talked God into letting Satan torture him by inflicting him with boils and killing his cattle and children. God sounds like a cool dude, the kind you’d want to leave your small pets and children with.
If he was such a disgusting sinner (equal, like me, to a thief and murderer) and God knew that (because he knows past, present, future) Why did he send angels to tell him to leave the city, that he was a DESCENT man, and let him live. And then here we have Job, minding his own business, the MOST faithful and devout person to God on the whole earth, and he’s being tortured and his family is being murdered all so God can prove to Satan (why would God have to prove anything anyway? Isn’t a God above such things as proving himself because he sure isn’t doing it these days, and why would he lower himself to arguing with Satan his arch nemesis?) that Job IS indeed faithful. “Yeah, mess him up, he won’t blame me. Even though you asked my permission and I gave it to you”. That sounds like a JUST God to me, yep.
God always gives people a chance. He has sent His Word to all of us. He has sent people to share that Word (like what I am doing with you). The difference between you and Lot is the fact that he believed God and obeyed. He was not perfect, but he was willing to humble himself, set his pride aside, and do what God asked of him. I am the same way and you could be as well.
Job was blessed beyond measure by God. He had a bad wife and probably bad kids (they seemed to like to party). He loved them all even though they did not seem to return the favor. God knew Job’s reaction. The trial was for Job. It brought him to a new understanding of who God is and how God provides in every situation of life. If he would not have gone through the trial then he would not have known God in such a personal way and he would not have received the awesome blessings that he did.
God protected Job throughout the entire ordeal. We learn many positive things about God and ourselves from this account. It is a blessing for us just like for Job.
It would be impossible to be perfect if it were just written by men. Take 44 different men over a 1,600 year period, from 3 different continents (back before globalization), writing in 3 different languages, and have them write a book, adding to it along the way. When you get to the end, how many contradictions do you think there will be? How many mistakes will there be? Would it fit together perfectly, like the Bible does? That would be literally impossible, because people make mistakes. God does not and since there are no mistakes, the probability that God had His “hand” in it is very high.
When people point out supposed “mistakes” in the Bible, they do it out of ignorance. The usually know nothing of the cultural context of the passage, or the original language. They avoid all the rules for interpreting literature and get ridiculous “interpretations”. Once the facts of the cultural context (as well as the context of the passage) and the tools for interpreting literature are applied, the “mistake” is quickly and easily seen as a mistake by the one making the claim and not by the Bible.
As to Lot, I already answered that one here.
Thank you. It’s all very clear to me now. God has a sense of humor. Well, at least that makes some semblance of sense. So you’re sticking with the whole “it’s just too perfect” thing, eh? That might be the weakest of all your arguments. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t stand up to that whole scientific method you’ve been going on and on about, and that’s so ironic because your beliefs are so far off from what science accepts as fact. Jesus rode a dinosaur y’all! Remember, you trust and benefit from science daily as it enhances your quality of life. The Bible does have contradictions. You’re just a Christian apologist, and will go to any length necessary to justify your beliefs whether it makes you look like a total retard or not. It must get tiring after to have to try so hard to rationalize evil only to still come out looking like a bigot and elitist. God rewards drunks like Noah and perverts like Lot, and punishes Job who is his most faithful servant.
It has nothing to do with a sense of humor or not. I explained to you in another comment. It was for Job’s benefit and for ours as well.
I agree with science, as long as it is hard science that can be reproduced by using the steps of the scientific method. I do not agree with pseudo-science, or macro evolution. It is not hard science, just a silly theory based on 19th Century limited understanding of actual science.
If you cannot show 1 contradiction and back it up with evidence then it would be better to remain silent. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again like a little kid who has no rebuttal but “it is so, because I say so”. Proof please.
Job was not punished. That is your opinion, not based upon the facts.
Oh my, I have never heard this argument before. You are so original. Here is the actual passage. Did you even bother to check if the website you got the info from was right? Did you actually read the passage from the Bible? I did not think so.
Let me help you get out. 1) in the first case, the woman is married and has consensual sex with a man who is not her husband. She and the man are to be put to death for their immorality. It will serve as a lesson for the next people who consider sinning. 2) the second case, the woman is engaged (in Biblical times that was the same as being married today). She has consensual sex with a man in the city (it was not rape because she could have cried out and had help). She does not cry out because it is consensual. The man and the woman are put to death for their sin. 3) this is the only case of rape, she was taken in the field and cried out but no one was there to help. She is not put to death, only the perp, the man. 4) this case is consensual sex, they are caught but there is no victim, he is to marry the girl and stay with her all of his life (if her father allows it).
You see, you are badly misinformed, either by choice or you are just deceived. Learn to think for yourself instead of relying on what others say.
You wrote “They weren’t REAL christians. Well, there’s no way to prove that now is there so we’ll just have to agree that regardless whether that’s a valid point or not it was this gentle, benevolent religion that fueled the fire and served as the motivation for such vile, inhumane acts”
Read carefully.
You will know them by their actions. Those who obey God are Christian. Those who do not are not.
Artiss!
I have seen and red all your conversation with Erik .
I admire Erick to have such strenth and patience to have discussions with so stubborn people like You and others. You are ignorant to the Truth and endandger yourself and others to the future.
You should appologise to Erik and shut up then get to have sex with some gay by force as they practice to do so ( because there is no other way) and tell us how great you felt.
Now lough or get agitated .
Bucket full of water and so what if many holes in its bottom?
You Christians really should stop trying to drag everyone to everlasting torture with you guys. Stop worshiping your false gods and forcing everyone to live by your rules through your horrible lies. The true God, The Flying Spaghetti Monster is your creator and master, not some powerful image of yourself. http://www.venganza.org/2011/01/gay-marriage/
What you are doing disgusts your master. Stop it. Stop sinning and harming humanity. Even after all you are given, you are still so selfish? YOU, and no one else is evil. You who is stubborn and stuck in your FALSE GOD ideas without concern for ANYONE other than the LIES your love. Stop deceiving people you extremely selfish and cowardly depressed person, and open your arms to the FSM before it is too late, for he will forgive you. ^-^
Lies you love*
I am not being tortured as a Christian. In fact, Christianity set me free from a life of torture. I was tortured by being a slave to sin. God relieved all of it for me. He can do the same for everyone (even you).
Can you prove that God is false? You can live however you want but do not forget that your actions have consequences. Also, your rights end where mine begin and I have every right to stop you from spreading immorality.
You can hang with the flying S.M. if you want. BTW, you can prove the S.M. as easily as you can reproduce and prove macro evolution. They are both a fairytale.
How is protecting people from the dangers of sexual immorality and homosexuality harming humanity? How is helping people avoid STD’s harmful? I would say promoting a lifestyle that leads to STD’s and death is sinful and harmful.
How can you prove that I am evil? A person who has standards is evil, according to your logic. Do I not have the right to disagree with someone’s lifestyle?
You see, you have been deceived. You promote a double standard and are quite politically incorrect. You are not supposed to make judgments according to the p.c. crowd yet that is exactly what you do.
So you talk about how god doesn’t want us to be homosexual. If I may point out a few things. This was written in the book of Duteronomy, who was a “prophet” of god coming nearly 300 years after Jesus. He also talks about how you should stone your children when they disobey and how women shouldn’t learn in schools. He than goes to talk about how he condems shellfish and round haircuts. So unless you don’t eat shellfish, beat your children and wife and have a non-round haircut, I could see your argument. Stop being a “Buffet Catholic”, picking and choosing what you want to believe in.
Ps: You know what Jesus said about Homosexuality? Do you? Why don’t you read the bible and find out.
Jesus condemned homosexuality like all other sins. I have read the Bible. Obviously you missed that fact when you supposedly “read’ the Bible.
Deuteronomy is from a Hebrew word that mean “words” or “things”, like “important stuff” in our modern terminology. Deuteronomy was not a prophet. It is the 5th book of Moses, part of the Jewish Torah. It was written possible as late as the 8th Cent B.C. (possible much earlier). The children who were put to death were not babies or even young children. They were old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. They were repeatedly warned to stop. They were putting the lives of their parents at risk as well as the rest of the community. In order to protect the parents and community (decent, hard working people) the rebels were to be put on trial and only then, were they to be put to death. You miss many details in your generalization that the Bible teaches to put children to death. Since I am sure that you copied this idea from someone else instead of actually going to the source, I would advise you to research a little before making such bold statements. Go back to the source and see how it compares to the lies you got from another site or book.
Nowhere in the Bible will you find a passage that says a girl should not study and learn in school.
You compare shellfish and haircuts (sacramental laws) to moral laws (do not practice sexual immorality). Next time, try comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. I am not Catholic (in the sense as being part of the organized Catholic church). I do believe every word of the Bible, and live it.
Hello.
Let me first start off by saying the Brewers are going to hell. You assume you know what God wants and for that you will burn for all eternity. That is of course if you do believe in what you believe in.
1) You think that there are not straight people out there with 100+ partners? I doubt homosexuality has anything to do with the fact that people … (edited because of foul language) like rabbits in general.
2) The country where AIDS is the most present (and originated) is in Africa, and it doesn’t come just from homosexuality. It comes from prostitution, it comes from the MALEs RAPING the FEMALEs. Not Homosexuality
“It was in Kinshasa in the 1970s that the first epidemic of HIV/AIDS is believed to have occurred. The emerging epidemic in the Congolese capital was signalled by a surge in opportunistic infections, such as cryptococcal meningitis, Kaposi’s sarcoma, tuberculosis and specific forms of pneumonia.
It is speculated that HIV was brought to the city by an infected individual who travelled from Cameroon by river down into the Congo. On arrival in Kinshasa, the virus entered a wide urban sexual network and spread quickly.
The world’s first heterosexually-spread HIV epidemic had begun.”
3) I doubt you could say that the majority of mental ill beings out there are homosexual. Everyone has problems. Work related, love related. Eric and Elena (You) obviously have problems for even thinking of such a statement. Your kids will have problems if you ever have offspring, which if God does play a role in anything, should not happen.
4)Everything shortens your lifespan nowadays. Drinking soda, smoking, living under telephone cables, not jerking off, having kids. The day you take your first breath your lifespan starts shortening.
Eric and Elena you are nothing but bible thumping homophobes and for your hatred you shall never obtain any measure of happiness.
Do you have some proof to back up your ridiculous claim? (or just empty words, cheap words and about 50 cents might get you a coke somewhere).
I know what God’s will is, it is written in black and white in the Bible. Sexual immorality is sin. Homosexuality is sexual immorality. Punishment and condemnation us upon those who live in sin (homos included).
Straight people with over 100 partners is sin too. I never said it was not. You have made no point, but agree with mine.
Rape is sin too and needs to be condemned. Again, you agree with me. You are more at risk of getting HIV if homo, even if there are more heteros with HIV. It is more dangerous for homos.
HIV/AIDS is an STD. The main way it is transmitted is through sexual activity. Do some research.
We have created 2 beautiful children (something that homos do not and cannot do) and they will not be influenced by the deception of the homosexual agenda, be sure of that.
Yes, we all have problems. The good news is that God has all the answers and all solutions to all of our problems.
well, i didnt even know about your blog, a friend on face book wanted us all to come here n “put you doen” i desided to check it out, i was raised by christian parents, they always went out of there way to help ppl, da would pick up hitchhikers n try to talk to them, he like you never got rude, never got mean, never cussed, he tried to explain why doing what they did was wrong, idk if any ever acted like the ppl here are acting, so my answer is this, sorry my friends, NO i will Not slam this man and his wife for saying the same thing i was rasied to belive, EVERYONE has a right to there opinion, even if by all of there standerds its outmodeled/Antiquated as far as it being uneducated and unenlightened, i disagree, acording to what GOD tells his children he is very well informed and his enlightenment is given to him thru his belife in Jesus christ, So i am sure my “bleeding heart Liberal” friends are very put out with me, i dont preaach it like Eric does, but i agree with him who heartedly, and FYI? to all you ppl who used hate and cussing to try and shoot this pair down for there beliefs? one of my best friends is Gay….she knows i dont agree with her lifestyle choise but also knows she’s my buddy and i love her regardless.so to Erik and Elana Brewer you go!! Opinions are a form of free speach and i guess from what i’ve seen here only the bleeding heart liberals belive that THEY have a right to those.
also, ppl who blog here about how many have been killed in the name of Christ? the Crusades might have been done “in the name of Christ” but it was done by greeedy kings, and a church that was at that time…whats the word…Uneducated…and you slam Christians for murders done in THERE name…are you an American?…have you ever heard of a date in our history…its called 911 a group of radical Islamic’s attacked us, in the name of islam…you ppl sicken me, you lash out with anger and Hatred because this man and his wife have an opinion that isnt what yours is, you have a god given right to CHOOSE how to live, no pressure other than Christians are told by there god to preech my word, so what i’m seeing is annger towards these two for doing as there beliefs tell them to…
Also, former President Bush, a born-again Christian, went to war with a country that didn’t do anything to the US (Iraq), and as a result, thousands of men, women, and children (I’m sure the unborn as well) were unjustifiably killed. Fundamentalists, regardless of which religion they adhere to, are a dangerous lot. They all think that what they believe is the only right/true belief and they are willing to get violent with anyone who doesn’t adhere to their beliefs.
So it was better to have Saddam continue to rape and murder his own people? Were they better off under his dictatorship? Also, Iraq was a terrorist haven and I do not know if you realize it or not, but we were attacked in 2001 by TERRORISTS.
Also, the major reason for women and children dying, came/comes from the terrorists. They set up shop in schools and public places, shooting at the troops, killing them and hoping to draw fire so that they can scream “look!!! the kill innocent women and children”. Then naive people (who do not study the facts) take these blatant lies and run with them.
Preaching salvation from sins, teaching “do not murder/lie/steal/commit adultery”, and helping people live a moral lifestyle by serving God through serving others makes you a dangerous person? I do not see your logic here. Maybe you can enlighten me.
The Bible is not true because I believe It. God is not true because I believe Him. I believe the Bible because It is True. I believe God because He is True. These are 2 totally different concepts. The first (which you seem to adhere to) is based on relativism and is an extremely dangerous teaching. The second is based on absolute truth (which is absolutely true).
So, Erik. How do you explain the fact that lesbians have the lowest incidence of sexually transmitted disease; even lower than hetero couples?
Hard to narrow the search to just lesbians since many so called lesbians participate in bisexual activity (immorality has many forms) so you could eliminate the “lesbians” from the stats who are actually bisexual, once they are infected with an STD. In other words, you cook the books in your favor. Having said that, there are many other problems among lesbians, alcoholism, violent crimes, depression, drug abuse, etc. The sin of homosexuality has many other sinful friends and they love to spend time together. If you want some more info on the subject, I can send a link.
“any so called lesbians participate in bisexual activity”
Can you provide your source for this?
“In other words, you cook the books in your favor.”
Can you prove that I have cooked the books? Again, can you provide your source?
As I said, if you want sources then I will provide. Check it out here.
“Do you know why Lot’s daughters were so messed up? Because they lived in a city where homosexuality was the rage of the day. It was promoted and practiced openly.”
That’s just your assumption, of course. There’s nothing in the Bible to suggest that either of Lot’s daughters had anything wrong with them, mentally. They were preserving their father’s line, using line breeding father-to-daughter. If they were so “messed up” by rampant homosexuality, you would have thought they would have had sex with each other. Instead they picked their drunk, elderly father.
In fact, the whole sexual angle of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is just an assumption. The verb in Hebrew, yadah, means both to know in a sexual manner and to discover the nationality or purposes of a person. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is evident from Jesus’ reference to them, not in the context of sexual misconduct, but of being inhospitable. (Matthew, 10:14-15 & Luke, 10:10-12) It’s also evident in Ezekial 16:49:
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
The misconception of Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin being one of sexual iniquity is an old one, as evidenced by the book of Jude. However, if go back to Jesus’ words, not the words of his hangers-on, we find that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah were varied, but ordinary.
By the way, I misspelled “yadah.” It’s actually “ya’da.”
I never said the girls had mental problems. They were negatively influenced by the sexually immoral lifestyles of the homosexuals and other sexual deviants living around them.
Lot (along with his family) were oppressed by the sensual conduct of the sexually immoral homosexuals of Sodom. Their souls were tormented day after day by what they saw and heard in the streets of Sodom.
You see, I did not assume anything. You did all of the assuming. I used the actual text to explain the argument. You have your assumptions and that is about all.
Getting your father drunk and having sex with him is pretty messed up if you ask me. Maybe according to your idea of morality, this behavior is acceptable. You see, sin not only directly impacts the one who practices it, but also negatively impacts the entire society. That is why Jesus calls Christians the salt of the earth. Salt stops decay. Sexual immorality causes societal decay.
I knew you were going to go the “inhospitable” route. So not original on your part. Read Gen. 19 , the actual account of the reason for the destruction of Sodom. The men of the city both young and old (the older homosexuals taught the younger ones, good converts) came to Lot’s house and asked to have sex with the men who entered Lot’s house. They were not just interested in sex (they rejected 2 virgin girls) they wanted sex with other men. That my friend is sexual immorality.
This is from Ezekial
Just a little help for you in your interpretation. They were committing abominations. Here is what God calls abominations in the Old T. Leviticus 20
You see, the men of Sodom were practicing homosexuals and were punished because of it. Homosexuality is dangerous for society.
You’re cherrypicking again, Erik. You see the word “abomination” in one verse, and you jump to the word “abomination” in another verse, assuming that I won’t know that the word is used for all sorts of things, including violating dietary laws. I could just as easily say that the writer of Ezekial is referring to the eating of eagles and vultures, or pigs. This is also an abomination in the OT.
Also, if Lot knew that his neighbors were violent homosexuals, why did he let his daughters marry two men of Sodom? Why would he offer his daughters to a group of men demanding to have sex with men? That’s not logical at all. Nothing about the story makes sense in the context of Sodom being a place of homosexuals. The story does make sense when understood in the context of Sodom’s sin being that of inhospitality.
I agree that you didn’t say that the girls were “mental problems.” I was extrapolating from the data, as you have with your interpretation of the story. You said they were “messed up” and the only kind of “messed up” I’m familiar with that could cause a young girl to want to have sex with her father would be classified as mental problems. Your definition is more in line with the early teachings of the church, which said that mental illness was caused by sin and demons. We now understand that to be false. I did not expect you to fall back on a long disproved definition of mental illness.
This will be my last comment here. I read the other comments, and I attempted to treat you with respect, only to have you mock me and belittle me. I think I was right. I think you’re proud.
Read Ezekiel more carefully, along with the cross reference in Peter’s epistle.
Just like to point out a few key words from the CONTEXT: sensual conduct – it is clear that food is not involved here.
As I have said, Scripture helps interpret Scripture and when you study you must keep in mind the cross references on the subject or passage that you are studying. Do your homework next time. The facts are against you, once again.
As I said, the immoral influences of Sodom impacted everyone, even the righteous man Lot. He was not perfect but humble enough to do what God said. God did not tell him to move to Sodom, he did that in a sneaky way. God did not tell him to offer up his daughters to be raped, that was his stupid choice. You are right, Lot’s choices were not logical, that is the problem with sexual immorality, it is not logical and it leads to more illogical actions.
The men (specified in the text) came to Lot’s house and demanded the 2 men (no one knew they were angels, they looked like ordinary men) be sent outside so that they can have relations with them (sexual in nature).
So basically with the mental illness approach, you were trying to set a trap. Anyway, it is clear that the girls had no problem being sexually immoral, even though they knew better. Why is that? Peter explains in his epistle, they were surrounded by immorality and it influenced them in a very negative way.
Ok, sorry if I mocked, I was a little frustrated with the same tired arguments. I do apologize.
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I find this whole topic very interesting. Indeed the Bible does speak against homosexuality. What intrigues me most is the fact that these people are arguing about why you are concerned about the 3% and not the 97%. What they’re missing is the “squeaky wheel gets the oil” so the 3% is trying very desperately to push onto the 97% what they believe. This in and of itself is a red flag.
The fact that you’re getting so many responses thrown your way is also a sign that you’ve touched a nerve. If it didn’t offend them, then they wouldn’t be commenting.
I appreciate you trying to educate people. If they don’t want to be educated, they should just move on rather than trying to convince you that your education isn’t education but judgment.
Stay the course. Keep up the good fight. Some people may actually learn something from all of this. I appreciate what you’re trying to do. Prayers going up for you, man.
Look, another guy who gets his morals from taking a book with a talking snake in it literally.
Hope you enjoy being the laughingstock of the world.
Do you believe in macro evolution? Do you believe that living organisms change over time? Answer that and then we can chat more about talking snakes.
Do you have a blog on macro evolution?
No
A living organism doesn’t itself change over time – that is, evolve in the way you’re trying to imply here. But the gene pool of its species does change over time. There is no such thing as macro-evolution and micro-evolution, except in the minds of creationists that want to confuse people who haven’t read about evolution on their own.
A very handy illustration of so-called micro-evolution versus macro-evolution is shown here: http://i.imgur.com/oAnfA.jpg
I can sum up your “facts” quite nicely.
[Citation Needed]
It is impossible for HIV to be transmitted via lesbian sex, so please explain to me how women contract HIV?
As for the bible, it says I can sell my daughter into sexual slavery, beat my wife and enslave other folks. If you do any work on the sabbath, I have the biblical right to kill you.
As I have said, most of the research indicates that lesbians are not totally lesbian, in fact, they participate in a bisexual lifestyle. They can contract STD’s by being immoral (lesbianism is a form of immorality and immorality has many forms). I have given a link to stats on how lesbians tend to live more of a bisexual lifestyle. You can take it or leave it.
The Bible says nothing of selling your daughter into slavery. The Bible says nothing of beating your wife or enslaving people. Please have some sources next time (I know what verses you will try to use out of context, in fact I have already written on the subject).
You do not have the right to murder anyone. Maybe that is your own little fantasy?
How much of your life have you wasted on this homophobic ranting?
Have you noticed your country becoming more homophobic in the last 50 years? Not really. If anything people, especially younger people, have become far more tolerant of gay and other lifestyles that you may not approve of.
If you wish to spend whatever life you have you left in this particular endeavor then suit yourself. Personally I think you’re wasting your time.
People have much bigger concerns these days. Unemployment, falling living standards, wars, healthcare costs, utility bills, etc etc. I would think who is gay and who isn’t is pretty far down a verrrrrrrrrrrrry long list of worries.
But as I said it’s your life. Fill it with dubious statistics, suppressed resentment, and petty name calling as much as you like but it won’t do you any good. It won’t make you feel any better, and it certainly won’t have any effect on social trends within the USA or the rest of the world.
Try to understand. Homosexuality is no longer illegal. It is not going to become illegal ever again. No politician with serious ambitions would ever wish to be accused of being a bigot, racist, sexist or homophobe.
It’s time to move on.
First of all, I am not “homophobic”. That it a word invented by homosexuals to be a straw man argument against anyone who does not agree with their lifestyle. I have ample evidence to show why I do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle. It is dangerous to a person’s health. So your “name calling” tactic is cheap and shows your lack of intellectual integrity.
Why are people becoming more “tolerant” to homosexuals? Because they are being brainwashed from an early age by the propaganda of the homosexual movement. Schools are promoting “gay days” starting in kindergarten. Of course people who are brain washed will be more “tolerant”. BTW do I have to be tolerant of something that is dangerous? Homosexuality is very dangerous to your health. So is murder, should we tolerate murderers and rapists too?
I will fight against immorality in all of its forms, until I exhale my last breath. I have the command from God and I will obey. I do not fight against people but sin (their lifestyle).
Homosexuality, STD’s, immorality, and health care costs go hand in hand. Do you have any idea how much money is spend on STD’s every year (not including HIV/AIDS)? Eliminate immorality (in all its forms) and STD’s will die out too (not hard to see that connection).
Who is doing the petty name calling???
I will do my part and not be ashamed before God. Whether the country changes or not, that is not up to me. I will do my part. BTW, if you would read the Bible, you would see how one person can change an entire society, just because he was faithful to God.
You wrote “bigot, racist, sexist or homophobe”. There is the petty name calling again. You should really work on that. I have the right not to agree with the homosexual lifestyle and not be ridiculed and called names (unless I am still on the first grade playground, which seems to be the case when discussing with homosexuals and their friends).
You’re a hopeless case man. Then again people like you always are, but like most of your ilk you are confined to the internet where you can preach to the converted to your hearts content.
I wasn’t planning on making this a long discussion since it would be completely pointless.
Bang your head against the wall but all you will get is a headache. The world will continue to turn. Homosexuals will become more and more accepted and you will become an ever fainter, evermore irrelevant voice ranting away in the background noise.
Confined to the internet? Ha ha, that is funny. I also write for a newspaper. I am also a pastor/missionary so I have access to lots and lots of people and I do teach them the Word of God, especially the dangers of immorality (including homosexuality).
It is pointless when I deal in the facts and you do not. I will never concede to the lies that you hold dear and true. You will probably never humble yourself to accept God’s Word.
Homosexual will become more and more aggressive and more and more intolerant of people who do not agree with their lifestyle. They will make new converts because of all the propaganda put out. I do not deny that.
God’s Word will never be silenced, no matter how “tolerant” the world becomes to sin.
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Point by point breakdown of your world-view.
1: Gays are promiscuous.
Even in recent years, admitting you are gay will incite crowds of the ‘god fearing’ to harass and throw things at you in what should be considered unChristian behavior. Staying in a single relationship made you and your lover noticable, and being noticed made you a target. Unable to build a meaningful relationship out of fear for their lives, many homosexual men in the 70’s simply took passion in place of love. Of course, the same was true of many straight men in that time period and they didn’t have the threat of stoning hanging above their heads.
2: Promiscuity leads to STD’s
Well duh. Straight couples are at the same risk. Gay men often forgo protection because really people are only thinking about the dangers of parenthood when they reach for the condoms. Conversly, lesbians are less likely to contract STD’s than straights.
3: Being promiscuous will make you depressed.
Debatable. Depression usually stems from being ostracized in social settings. In other cases, it arises from lacking emotional connections which is not the case for long-term gay couples. It should be noted that you are still assuming gays are automatic bedjumpers and this argument only applies in terms of social stigma.
5: Being a homosexual will shorten your life by 20 years or more.
Unless you count the likelyhood of being murdered for Jesus, this would appear to be blatantly false. My mother knows a pair of gay men who’ve been together fifty years, since they were in their late twenties. It’s surprising the stress of dealing with religious and/or nosy neighbours didn’t kill them, but here they are past retirement and still as in love as starstruck schoolboys.
Since you are of the mindset to ignore physical, spiritual, and biblical arguments against the persecution of gays I’ll just leave those out of here and let you chew on the emptiness of your previous health-related claims.
Mmm. Tastes like straw.
Gays are still promiscuous, so you have proven nothing.
Straight couples are at the same risk. Immorality is dangerous for all. I have written on this, maybe you should read it.
As far as condoms go, please do not be deceived into thinking that they can protect from God’s judgment. Take a look at the facts.
I assure you that no one is going to murder you for Jesus, maybe for allah but not Jesus.
You know one couple, I wrote of the overall trend. Base the facts on the stats and not your 1 couple. I know a person who smoked for 80 years and is still alive, does that mean that we should promote smoking?
Since your entire argument is dependant on the baseless assumption of promiscuity would that not make being gay inconsequential to your rant?
Smoking is provably bad for your health, tar builds up in the lungs, cigarettes are filled with paint thinner and frickin cyanide, cholesteral builds up in veins causing hypertension and heart failure. These are medical observations. You’ve only stated that gays die early providing no reason or statistics. All you’ve got to go on is ‘I say so’ and it’s not terribly convincing.
Incidentally, I am straight. That does not exclude me from defending the rights of others.
Your jab at Muslims is not appreciated and may as well have been screamed into a mirror.
I never claimed condoms are a foolproof defense against disease, but they are a defense most people overlook in light of their role as birth control.
If you believe disease is God’s judgement, then perhaps you should stop buying Aspirin and vitamin C at the pharmacy and boycott the hospital. After all, colds, flu, cancer and Anthrax are apparantly God’s punishment upon you.
I backed up the argument with facts (but I guess those do not matter to you since you do not deal in those anyway).
Smoking is terrible for you. I have written on that topic as well.
I am straight and I am defending the rights of others. The rights of homosexuals end where my rights begin as well as the rights of my kids. Again, you prove no point other than the one that I have already made (read the article and the sources).
I did not take a jab at muslims, just stated a fact. The major terrorists killings are all done by muslims, who practice the religion of “peace” ironically.
All disease is a result of sin. That does not mean that every sick person has committed a specific sin to get sick. If sin were not in the world and if people were not sinners, then we would not have to worry about sickness, disease, or death, that is a fact.
Wow – did anyone actually bother reading all that? How is it that a supposed heterosexual can make such detailed, never ending rants and no one realizes he’s an obvious closet case. If this guy was really straight, he might say some standard insult about gays and then proceed to talk about sports and women. But “Erik” puts way too much thought into this.
Wow, you are so original in your argument. I am married with 2 kids (that doesn’t happen when you live the homosexual lifestyle).
One can disagree with a lifestyle without being part of that lifestyle. Show some intellectual integrity, please.
I do not need to talk about women, I have a wife. She is enough for me.
Also, next time try refuting the facts instead of name calling.
That couple I mentioned? A son with children of his own. One man made arrangements with a surrogate mother. He’s happily married with kids of his own and suffers none of the assumed psychological scars of growing up in a house with two fathers. He was not taught or encouraged to be gay, as some people swear will happen if gay couples adopt or even interact with children in any way.
Another logical failure.
Again, your proof is 1 couple, where as, I used the stats and the movement as whole. That is the problem with bleeding heart liberals (usually synonymous with homosexual) instead of looking at the trend, they want to look at a “few” cases as the examples for all. Nice try but it does not work.
Oh Erik, Erik, Erik… How little of you to judge others on grounds of which you have no real understanding of other than your “because its in the ‘bable'” excuse. Please, quote me word for word from your ‘bable’ where it says anything about or against homosexuality WITHOUT reading it out of context. You and your ilk presume that the ‘bable’ is the word of your ‘infallible’ god but yet you all LOVE to change the meaning and context of it on a regular basis. Your god, it’s ‘bable’ and its fundi followers are nothing more than a contradiction.
First of all, I have not judged anyone. Pointing out the dangers of homosexuality is not judging, it is discerning the facts. If I were to speak out against the dangers of homosexuality and then live as a homosexual then I would be judging others incorrectly. If I were to claim to know what homosexuals “think” without them actually saying it, then I would be judging. I think you should study the difference between judging and discerning. Plus, God has already judged the sin of homosexuality. I am just the bearer of the news.
I am a bit confused in what you require from me. Maybe you can rephrase your request so that I can understand it.
As far as “context” goes, I have used nothing out of context. If you read what I have been arguing for, then you will notice that I am a proponent of context, both immediate and historical. You need all the info before you make such bold statements.
Your proof amounts to self-indulgent statements deliberately worded to paint gays as being physically incapable of being anything other than the depraved, short-lived, God accursed predators you’ve portrayed. You speak in absolutes and purposely avoid words that suggest that there are gays *not* wallowing in sin and filth.
I.E. (That *doesn’t* happen when you live the homosexual life style.) You didn’t say it’s unusual, unlikely, or rare, you said it flat out doesn’t happen. Another example is your rather resolute: (Gays are promiscuous.) No use of ‘tend to be’ or ‘are mostly’ you leave no room whatsoever for those that save themselves for Mr./Mrs. Right. I doubt either statement was made carelessly, and both were intended to be read exactly how it was.
Having a single example is a shot directly in the eye of your broad and inflexible rhetoric, but there are entire countries that defy your expectations. You’ve named one of them so far. From what I hear, strolling down a street in the Netherlands you wouldn’t be able to tell a gay couple lived in every other house unless you were informed beforehand. Your generalizations just don’t hold water.
You’ve yet to offer any substance to claims that their lives are shortened except in AIDS references which still boil down to unsafe sex as opposed to preference of partner. These arguments are further invalidated by the prevelence of AIDS in countries where homosexuality is still outlawed. Straight Africans are more statistically more likely to die from such diseases than gay American drug addicts sharing dirty needles in a slaughterhouse.
You missed the point entirely with the cigarretes. They have measurable effects on the body which shorten the lifespan of most smokers. While a smoker may live to eighty, their health suffers incontestably. You’ve made no attempt to link homosexuallity to an early, natural death or any diminished physical well being. You just reiterated: “I’ve read that gays die young in this country, therefore I believe it shortens the lifespan.”
As for the ‘religion of peace’ do I seriously need to invoke the name of Fred Phelps, who openly advocates murder in the name of God? Do I have to drag the Crusades up out of the Dark Ages again? Must I mention the murder of Matthew Shepard? The burning of 6 year old boys as witches in the name of Jesus in MODERN Africa? The religious leanings of the KKK? The shootings of gynecologists over the abortion issue by hard-line bible-waving pro-lifers who ironically compared abortion to murder before pulling the trigger?
Or is this all Christianity-by-your-definition-accept-no-substitutes-including-Christianity? Islam, radical Islam, Shia and Sunni Muslims, are are distinctive from one another and many groups within each denomination decry the extremes as not being of their true religion. Some muslims would rather be killed than raise a hand in violence. But they don’t count now do they? No. You’ve repeatedly demonstrated your preference for absolutes and broad stereotypes.
And now, for the kicker, you’ve just equated empathy and respect with homosexuallity immediately after taking the stance that all gays are aggressive sexual predators incapable of leading a normal life or having moral values. I suppose I fall under the category of liberal although bleeding heart doesn’t describe me very well, I take a harsh stance on crime. I have many moral values, but I won’t ram them down someone else’s throat unless I have reason to believe they pose some kind of threat. This is the second time you’ve called me gay despite my clarification in my previous post. For a guy that claims I don’t listen to him, a lot sure goes over your head.
You win the shouting in the mirror award. We’ve gone past three strikes in this game of logic ball, and although you may have been the one that struck out, I will be the one to graciously leave the floor. Live long, and live healthy, though I imagine you’ll have trouble doing that if you stick to your convictions next time you catch something infectious. Enjoy the rest of your debate.
Are you saying that there are no absolutes? Are you absolutely sure of that?
Being homosexual means living in sin and filth. Being heterosexual and living an immoral lifestyle means living in sin and filth. Sin is filth.
Gays are promiscuous, just like immoral heterosexuals are promiscuous. What’s your point?
Any sex outside the confines of marriage is unsafe sex. The consequences of sexual immorality among heterosexuals is bad enough, yet they are worse among homosexuals. Read the studies that are out there.
Straight Africans who are immoral are at risk of HIV/AIDS, you have to make sure that you qualify your statement correctly.
Disease and shortened lifespan go hand in hand. I know that you cannot admit that because it then destroys your argument. Gays are at a higher risk than heterosexuals (even the immoral ones) of being infected with diseases (STD’s and others). Do not confuse the number of infected with the probability. There are more heterosexuals with STD’s because there are so many more heterosexuals than homos. You are dodging and spinning what I have written. It is a valiant effort in mental gymnastics, yet you are still wrong.
As far as Fred Phelps goes, read the Bible, Jesus says that you will know the true believers from the fake ones by their fruit, by their actions/lifestyle. Jesus says to very religious people, I do not know you and I have never known you (even if you have been very faithful in your religion) because at the same time, you practiced lawlessness (sin). Just because a person claims to be a Christian, that does not make him/her a Christian. As to Islam, muslims are required to convert or kill Jews and Christians (infidels). You will not find that kind of “peace” in Christianity (Biblical Christianity I might add).
The Crusades and Dark Ages show how desperate you are to make true Christians look bad. Much of the Crusades came as a result of muslim attacks on Christians (slaughter would be a better term). The Eastern Christians appealed to the Western ones for help. So again, it points back to the religion of “peace”, Islam as the culprit. Secondly, just because someone acts in the name of Christianity, that does not make the person a Christian. I explained that in the previous paragraph.
Abortion is the slaughter of innocent babies (who cannot defend themselves, that is who liberals target). Again, God never asks Christians to murder anyone. Those who murder in the name of Christianity are not Christians (their fruit/actions, show who they are).
If you would read the Koran, then you would see just how violent Islam is and what the requirements of Islam are. According to the Koran, there are not any non-radical muslims (if they are truly practicing what the Koran teaches as Islam).
I have empathy for homosexual (not the sin of homosexuality). Homosexuals are in darkness, slaves to sin, and in need of help. Most are so deceived that they do not even realize that they are trapped in a never ending cycle of sin. Some have seen the light, and come out of their slavery to sin (specifically homosexuality) and will freely admit how blind they were. They do it now because they are humble (not proud, pride is the sign of a person living as a slave to sin).
Homosexuals who repent of their sins, accept Jesus Christ as Lord (Master) and Savior, and dedicate themselves to being obedient to God can live “normal” lives (I know many who have made that choice).
Do you really take a harsh stance on crime? Do you agree with abortion? Do you agree with the death penalty for murderers? Do you agree with the death penalty for rapists? Answer that and we can see where you stance on crime is.
Taking a stance against sin (in all forms) is not ramming moral values down anyone’s throat. Do I not have a right to my own freedom of thought? Or, do I have to conform to the liberal/free thinkers way of thought? (does not seem to liberal or free in thought to me)
I never called you gay, may a pro gay supporter (which you obviously are) but not gay. Being gay or not is your own personal choice.
You leave so “graciously” with your parting shots, I commend you.
Which part of the bible are you referring to? The OT which talks about heterosexuals having homosexual sex in pagan temples, as this unnatural to them (but not unnatural to homosexuals)?
Or are you meaning the NT which has the mistranslation of ‘Arsenokotai’?
Perhaps you ought to be more careful with your translations before you start bad mouthing people who are gay.
Do you have any proof for this bold statement? Plus, in Leviticus, the statement man shall not lie with man as a man lies with a woman, is not qualified with “in the case of temple worship”. It is written in black and white, any male who lies with another male as a male lies with a female, has committed an abomination.
There is no mistranslation in the New T. There are several references to the sin of homosexuality in the New T. and the act is described (not just the word). Again, do you have any proof of your claims.
As far as translations go, I have the original languages and I am very careful about each word.
I suppose it would be quite rude of me to leave with what you consider a parting insult. Since you have made your response in the form of questions I feel compelled to answer.
I warn you, it’s wordy.
My stance on crime is thus: If you cast aside civilization and act as an animal by killing, raping, assaulting, stealing, and pissing on all that you come across then you should be treated as such. Prison is meant to be a truly horrible place where the right to be called human is earned back. Until the inmates earn that back they should be considered animals in cages. Those that wish to reform and rejoin society will do so with sweat and discipline as beasts of burden and I believe will truly appreciate what it means to be human with human rights after such an ordeal. Those who have no wish to reform or are literally incapable of acting as anything other than rabid dogs will not be let out. In the serious cases, they should be put down for public safety.
We beings of flesh and blood are only qualified to judge the crimes of the physical world, that which leaves an impact on body or property. Crimes such as murder, assault, abuse, theft, coercion, the suppression of free will, property destruction, rape, etc. If you are religiously inclined, then you should already know matters of the spirit have another judge, and no mortal is fit to speak for them. To believe otherwise is the mark of delusion and a dangerous sense of pride and grandeur.
As far as ramming values down throats goes there are things I do not agree with, but I would not force others to abide by my own set of rules. Is an extramarital affair wrong? Yes. It is a violation of the trust of your loved one. Do I believe you should be thrown in prison for it? No, that is a personal matter for the married to sort out, as it encompasses promises they made only to each other. It is no small thing, but it is not our place. Do I believe the Burkha is wrong? Yes. It is a lame attempt to pass off responsibility for temptation on women. Do I believe it should be outlawed? No. Do I believe *forcing* someone to wear it on threat of emotional abuse, prison, death, disownment, Etc. should be punishable by law? Yes. It violates the right to choose.
Abortion is a complex and heavy subject to say the least. There are cases when carrying a child to term can threaten the life of both mother and child, and then comes the hard choice of who to save. There are cases where a child may be born with a physical abnormality that would have made their life a short, unbearable hell. There may be a case where the circumstances surrounding conception would have made the child’s life unbearable. Deciding what is right and what is wrong in these situations is unsettling to most and clear cut to others. But the real issue is the recognition of the fetus as a sentient being. After the formation of the brain and establishment of cognitive functions, then I would say this is murder. But what most don’t get is that abortion will not take place after this stage of development legally. Until that point, the fetus is an extension of the mother’s body and not it’s own being. I spit in the faces of those who would take such a decision lightly, but the decision is ultimately theirs.
I find it troubling how easily you denied so many Christians as being Christian while not permitting Muslims the same courtesy based on your perception of their religion, as opposed to letting them have their own interpretation of it. Out of curiosity I read small translated section of the Koran. Terrorism is not a commandment in it but an affront, as is forced conversion. I am certain their Prophet weeps.
Now, back to my issue with your previous stereotyping, and refusal to acknowledge it as such.
If I were to say that Americans were obese, materialistic, racist, flag-waving gun nuts you would be very quick to rebuke that statement. The obesity statistic in the United States is dreadful, encompassing half the population. The second amendment is the most hotly debated constitutional issue in America, with some supporters making a point of going everywhere with a gun. Keeping up with the Joneses is a term coined for the pursuit not just of the good life in the US but of a better life than your neighbours, calculated solely on possessions. Racists are the most vocal, most visible of all Americans, and can be found making life miserable for others. These last two are so visible as to paint the opinions of outsiders looking in, but that makes no indication of how many people are actually like that.
You and I both know Americans can’t be summed up like that as a whole, nor can they be described that way as a majority despite the overwhelming statistics and public image. Yet this is what you do endlessly, and not just with homosexuals. My statistics happen to be genuine, I cannot verify yours.
66% of America overweight: http://clutchmagonline.com/newsgossipinfo/half-of-america%e2%80%99s-population-will-be-obese-in-40-years/
Everybody’s packing: http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/Gun-Ownership-Use-America.aspx
The homosexuals you describe – aggressive and outlandishly promiscuous – dwell in the lower 10% of the LGBT community. They are however the most visible, as it makes for entertaining television. Sleeping with 200 different people in a 10 year period is the claim of a braggart. Hugh Heffner has purportedly slept with just under that number of women over the course of 60 years and he defined what it is to be a ladies man. You’ve also asserted several times that homosexuals are automatically pedophiles. This is blatantly untrue. Note for example that few sexual predators who targeted young boys, if any at all, were attracted to grown men. They lusted after adult women, but not men. It’s about power and fear.
I rather directly refuted your claims that being gay has life-threatening physical repercussions by pointing out the only thing you said that had substance was the greater danger of STD’s for gay men and that was an issue that amounted to unsafe sex practices which were irrelevant to preference of partner. You have claimed in separate speeches that the ‘only’ form of safe sex is marriage. Since you are of a mind to deny gays the right to marry, that would prove to be difficult. You never addressed my point that statistically lesbians are at less risk to get AIDS than any straight couple.
Disease would have been the point where you floundered the most. You claimed directly that contracting a sexually transmitted disease was God’s punishment for homosexuality. I brought up the point that pious men will go to the doctor’s office when they get sick just like anyone else rather than believe it a punishment from God. You backpedaled and claimed instead that disease in general was the product of the ancient sins of man and it was foolish to ascribe a specific sickness in a specific person to a specific sin. This did not stop you from continuing to use AIDS as a speaking point due to higher probability for gay men. To counter your statistic, I brought up Africa. A continent rife with civil war and ethnic slaughter where the leading cause of death is not gunshot wounds but AIDS. In many African countries it is punishable by death to be gay and it’s the straight married couples and their children dying of the disease. You then said that all of Africa is being punished by God for it’s sins which disregarded your previous CYA in which you claimed catching a disease was not a direct act of God.
I believe in free speech. I will defend the right to speech even for an unabashed bigot standing within fist’s reach of me up until two points: I draw the line at the propagation of falsehood and slander when it can be proven untrue, especially when it is marketed as fact to sway opinion or for personal gain. I will speak out and attempt to disprove what I believe are falsehoods and encourage others to do the same. The more dire line is when the speaker crosses into the realm of incitement. When someone attempts to incite violence, abuse, rejection, discrimination and/or segregation of others through their speech that is when I believe it should be shut down. You are asking us to look upon homosexuals as diseased. I believe that to be a falsehood. Denying the rights of marriage – which is *not* solely the domain of religion – along with the right to raise a family and collect the same benefits as a straight couple may well cross the second line, but I will not demand your silence until I feel you threaten others.
And yes, you did suggest I was gay. Twice.
“Nobody is going to kill *you* in the name of Jesus, maybe Allah but not Jesus”
“Bleeding heart liberals, usually synonymous with homosexual”
I hope that clarifies my position. If there is anything further please say so. I enjoy impassioned discussion. If you do not wish me to comment further we can agree to disagree.
God has spoken on the subject of the death penalty, He is for it. He specifies when it is to be applied and how it is to be determined. I am for the death penalty because God is. If you put a murderer to death 1) he pays for his crime 2) the victim is honored 3) he will not be around to murder anyone again. Can he be forgiven by God? Yes. Does he still deserve the death penalty? Yes. Forgiveness and consequences are 2 different things. A sexually immoral person who contracts AIDS can be forgiven by God, but he still has to live with AIDS.
Actually, God says an extramarital affair is worthy of death. Do we obey Him in this area? No. What are the consequences? Sex is cheap and immorality is encouraged, children are the victims of destroyed families, STD’s are spread around like candy, etc. All of that could be prevented if we followed God’s plan. Affairs would be looked at much differently and would be much less “tempting” if we knew the result was death (it actually is in a spiritual sense but people do not seem to care about that). So you see, the actions of one person impact the entire society, therefore , as Christians, we are to stand against something that causes such societal decay (immorality).
Some lies about why abortions are committed.
Many times the doctor jumps the gun and says that the mother’s life is in danger. I know several cases where the mothers were told that they would die if they kept the babies. The children are all now growing into fine teens. Do not forget that God is in control of who lives and who dies, no matter what the doc says or tries to do.
Why would we want to snuff out people with physical disabilities? Do disabled people not matter? Do they not have a place on this earth? I would advise you to watch this video.
Life begins at conception. The child has all the dna for life. Babies outside the womb are not fully developed (they mature all of their lives) and they are dependent on others for life, yet they are considered alive (they have the same dna as the fetus when conceived).
I did not deny anyone as being Christian. I just stated what the facts are from the Bible. Jesus says that not everyone who “claims” to be His follower is actually His follower. He says that you will know His true followers by their actions, if they obey God or not.
You should read the entire Koran. Murder is a way of life for the Muslim. They infiltrate, gain power, impose Sharia law and once they have power, the killings begin (it is written in the Koran step by step how to do it). It is not a sin to lie to infidels (Christians and Jews) if you are in the land of war (land that is not muslim dominated). You can lie to your wife (that is acceptable at any time). The list goes on and on. I would recommend that you read up before blindly accepting.
Americans are very overweight. I am a normal weight for my height (maybe a little heavier than I should be but far from obese). I live in an Eastern European country and I am considered “fat”. For an American in America I am normal but I am heavier that the normal person where I live. We as Americans are overweight (I do not deny that). I notice it big time (no pun intended) when I step off the plane on to US soil.
Many Americans are very materialistic. We have so much more than so much of the rest of the world. Our poor are like the upper middle class in many countries of the world. I notice the materialism right away when spending time in the States.
I am glad that we are patriotic. I live in a country that was taught not to be patriotic and the current generation is suffering greatly because of it. I love the patriotism that I see when I step on US soil. We do not choose our countries of birth, just like we do not choose our families, but we are obligated by God to love the country that He put us in, just like we are obligated to love and honor our parents.
I never said that to be homosexual means to be a pedophile. That is a lie and you are not the first to try that tactic. Pedophiles (men who molest boys) practice the sin of homosexuality (male with male). Please stop accusing me of something that I did not do. Whatever it is about, when a male has relations with another male (no matter the age) like a male has with a female, then the outcome is the sin of homosexuality.
The only form of safe sex is in the confines of marriage between a man and a woman (that was what I wrote and you have “conveniently” eliminated the man and woman part).
As to lesbians, I did answer and gave you the source to show that it is extremely difficult to define a “lesbian” because they tend to switch between male and female partners, even while claiming to be lesbian.
An STD and the common cold are 2 totally different things. You are deliberately trying to compare apples to oranges. If we eliminate sexual immorality (sin) then we wipe out STD’s. STD’s and sexual immorality go hand in hand. God says that He will not let the sexually immoral person go unpunished (hetero and homo).
I am beginning to wonder if you actually read what I write or read what you “think” I write. You are spinning terribly. I said that all disease and sickness is a direct result of sin, the fall of mankind into sin. If that would not have happened then there would be no disease, sickness, or death. Since we all die, we have proof that we all sin. Sin leads to death. Having said that, you cannot claim that every time a person gets sick it is because of a specific sin. When a person contracts an STD from being sexually immoral, it is not hard to connect the dots between the disease and the sin. The common cold is a different story (apples to oranges again). Sexual immorality is rampant in many parts of Africa (a fact) and so is AIDS. Again, it is not hard to connect the dots. Stop sexual immorality (sin) and you stop the spread of STD’s.
I have not propagated anything false (I have documentation). Homosexuals do propagate lies. You have just contradicted yourself.
Homosexuals are at risk for disease, just because of their lifestyle choice (BTW, so are immoral heterosexuals, it is a fact).
I have not incited violence. The homosexuals constantly do. Here is some more proof.
I have not incited abuse. Homosexuals abuse themselves by living the lifestyle (they degrade themselves).
I reject the sin of homosexuality, not the homosexual.
Neither one of those statements say that I think you are homosexual. That is what you wanted them to say.
“you cannot claim that every time a person gets sick it is because of a specific sin”
Aren’t you doing this in the “Dangers of Being a mocker” blog?
I never claimed that every sin that a person commits leads to some form of sickness. Sickness and disease is a result of initial sin (original sin) but we live in a broken world so sickness can happen now even without sinning. God can use the sickness for your good and His glory if you let Him, but that is a different topic. In “the Dangers of Being a mocker” I was just pointing out what the Bible teaches and how that was seen in the life of an individual.
I only saw the source afterwards, as it was tucked away in the bottom after the meat of the article.
As such, I rescind my statement in its entirely, and apologize. I’m sorry. Delete it possible, as the entirety of my post was in error.
I am praying for you. Because to spend this much time and energy hating a group of people – and yes, spreading disinformation about homosexuals and their “negative impact” is pretty hateful – then there must be something missing in your life. Because someone who just has a problem with sin (though from your comments, you only have a real problem with the sin of homosexuality since you will laugh at anyone who brings up the other sins discussed in the OT along with homosexuality) won’t take their time and effort to talk about it so much. I mean, you do realize that you are currently closing more hearts to your point of view than you are helping homosexuals or turning people away from befriending homosexuals.
So I will pray for you that you find whatever it is that is missing in your life that you feel you have to continually attack a group of people that even you admit you aren’t trying to help. I will pray for you.
Not agreeing with a dangerous lifestyle is hatred??? Maybe you can enlighten me because I am not getting it. Is it hatred toward murderers because I do not agree with their lifestyles? What about child molesters? I hope you see the flaw in your reasoning.
Thanks for the prayers, although, I am not sure to whom you are praying.
I have not spread any disinformation. I have backed up every statement with facts. That is your problem if you do not want to agree with reality, but it is not disinformation on my part.
I am content with my relationship with God and the new life that He has given me. I am trying to protect my family and the entire society from an evil (sexual immorality, especially in the form of homosexuality).
I have written against all forms of immorality. The fact that you are not well informed does not change reality, it just means that you need to be better informed.
God is against homosexuality (the sin) and if I am His child (and if you are too) then I have to stand against what He is against. God punishes those who promote homosexuality the same way that He punishes the homosexuals. Maybe you should become more familiar with the Bible.
How is sharing the awaiting condemnation for homosexuals and the hope that they can be transformed and escape that condemnation, how is that not helping them? Again, your logic is strange to me.
“I have not spread any disinformation.”
Well now, let’s see…
Your source, a paper by John R. Diggs, has been condemned by several of the authors of the sources HE sites as being taken out of context or misrepresented. The problems with your “source” are many.
The fact that you apparently didn’t spend any time at all looking into the validity of your source shows me that you’re willing to buy into anything that agrees with your foregone conclusion.
I just found online “sources” that cites studies showing that Christian kids have lower IQs than non Christian kids, and that Christians are more likely to abuse their children. I should probably start my own blog to warn people away from Christianity…
What are the politics of the “several of the authors he sites”? I would like to see more information than “they have condemned”. I want to see some specific reasons.
I did check the validity of the source. I have read both sides of the argument (unlike most of the pro homo crowd).
If you do not like the facts you can 1) disagree with them 2) attack the character of the one who shows them to you 3) write the other side of the story (usually full of spin). It is clear which one you have chosen.
You never said to be a homosexual is to be a pedophile?
“Homosexuals have a taste for young boys, they always have and always will.” From your own posting, which led me to this very discussion. Repent, liar.
Did you seriously just claim that lesbians don’t exist? That all ‘lesbians’ are actually bisexual? How detatched from reality are you? By the way the statistic still stands: bisexual women are more likely to contract HIV than pure lesbians but oddly enough are still less likely than a purely straight woman. A a further point of interest is that while the phrase ‘though shalt not lie with a man as thou wouldst a woman’ shows up in the bible I’ve seen little direct mention of women laying with other women.
You speak constantly of the word of God, but your bible was written by mortals. Written, re-written, and interperetted to suit the reader’s beliefs at all times. The subject of what warrants death and how readily to forgive has changed in many iterations from the Old Testament to the King James and Jefferson Bibles. It’s never been about you agreeing with God. You’re just dead certain that God agrees with you.
Homosexuallity bothers you? Fine, don’t be gay. You believe a promiscous lifestyle – which for the last time does not go hand in hand with orientation – is a path to ruin then by all means preach. If they are sinners, then God will call them to question in the afterlife. But we are not Him, nor are we fit to mete out punishment for offenses against Him. Offer no slander, bear not false witness as you clearly have done, and do not seek to impede upon the lives of others because they do not live up to your standards. You would have society shun and the law exclude and shackle homosexuals. I would call that incitement of abuse.
Reasoning with you has proven pointless. Every point anyone in this thread has tried to make to you, logical or spiritual, has simply bounced off your ironclad belief that everything you say is right regardless of your own posthumous reinterpretations.
I will not respond to any further questions, as you’ve made up your mind about the answers and would in all likelihood attempt to retroactively adjust what you meant when you made a previous statement. The most frightening part of it is that you will be entirely unaware you are doing it, and truly believe yourself when you say it. I bid you fare thee well.
I did not lie. Homosexuals do have a taste for young boys. We have seen many, many cases of pedophilia in recent years (in the Catholic church for one) that involved the sin of homosexuality (male priest with a male alter boy = homosexual sex). Again, I have not lied. Maybe you should retract your blatant lie. Repentance would also be good for you.
I did not claim that lesbians do not exist. Here you go with the spin. Please read the words that I actually type, before jumping to conclusions. This seems to be a problem with the pro homo crowd.
Please read Romans 1 more carefully to see what God has to say about the sin of lesbianism. Have you ever actually read the Bible or do you just go on what other people say about the Bible?
The Word of God was written by 44 different men, on 3 different continents, over a 1600 year period, in 3 different languages yet there is not one contradiction and there is one main focus, how man can have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. There is no way that all could fit together so perfectly without it being God inspired. Plus, the Scriptures (which you have obviously not read) testify to the fact that the Bible is directly inspired by God and everything that is written in it comes from the mouth of God (if you want reference, I got’em, but I doubt that you care).
The sin of homosexuality does bother me, because of the dangers of the lifestyle and the fact that homosexuals spread their propaganda about the sin of homosexuality. They present homosexuality as something normal (which is their opinion, and their right) but they fail to mention the dangers. I want to mention the other side of the equation so that people can be well informed and not deceived by the homosexual propaganda. God will call them to question in the after life, but what about the here and now? Who will protect the naive from the lies that homosexuals propagate? As a Christian, I am called to stand up for what is right and against what is wrong. Lying propaganda is wrong. The sin of homosexuality is wrong. Deceiving innocent children is wrong. Spreading STD’s through an immoral lifestyle is wrong etc. etc. I also have a right to stand up for my rights. When homosexuals infringe on my rights (trying to change the laws of marriage in my country) then I have a right to speak out. Or, do you think that only homosexuals should have a right to propagate and I should be silent? That is not very American of you, if that is the case.
Homosexuals are protected under the law just as I am. Why should we make them a special group within society if they are just like everyone else?
Because people like you treat them differently, that’s why there need to be laws.
Do you mean that I do not have the right to disagree with a person’s dangerous lifestyle? I treat homosexuals just like any other citizen.
Which of your rights is being infringed by allowing gays to marry? Do you think that when it’s finally seen as normal, you’ll have to divorce your wife and marry a man? Regardless of what you may have heard (or what you may preach) in church, that’s not how it works.
In a way it’s similar to when women got the vote – men were still able to vote; nothing changed regarding that. But there is a difference: a man’s vote suddenly counted for less, because now there were all those pesky women also voting. But in the case of homosexuals being able to marry, there’s no difference – heterosexuals will still be able to get married, for all the same reasons as before. The heterosexual model of marriage will be as strong as ever.
Or do you perhaps feel that your marriage isn’t that strong? I hope that’s not the case, but if it is, then I’d suggest that you look at your own marriage rather than try to deny a similar privilege to someone who’s a little different to you.
A couple of things should be pointed out to you. One, gender, women do not choose to be women, and homosexuality, men choosing to be gay and women choosing to be lesbian are two different comparisons.
Marriage is the bedrock of society (between one man and one woman). Homosexual marriage is a direct attack on the bedrock of society. As any good construction worker knows, if you start making changes to the foundation of a building (not really knowing what those changes will cause) then you place the entire building in danger of collapse and the lives of the people living in the building are also put at risk. We already have the studies to show what happens when you start changing the family model of one man and one woman, the children suffer the most. Divorce and single motherhood have crippled the home and society over the past 30 years (since the 1970’s after the age of “love” brought on by the hippies of the 1960’s). To add to that, now we open the door for all kinds of problems when marriage is no longer between one man and one woman (and again, the children are the ones who will suffer). Also, by changing the definition of marriage, now you open the door for propaganda in the public schools (it is already happening so just imagine when the promoters of the homosexual agenda have full approval to teach openly in all schools.) I have the right to teach my children about human sexuality without them being indoctrinated by someone with an agenda. Changing the definition of marriage will infringe upon my rights and expose my children to propaganda tactics that I do not want them to be a risk of hearing.
There are enough cases in England and Europe of pastors and preachers who are being jailed for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality because a minority has figured out a way to infringe on the free speech rights of the majority. Plus, now many homosexuals are demanding that they be married by pastors in protestant churches and sue the ministers and churches who refuse to marry them out of their right of conscious. Again, the rights of one person are being infringed upon by the rights of another. People have been fired from their jobs for refusing to take part in “gay day” celebrations at their jobs. They are not against people but the principle of being forced to promote something that goes against their conscious and that is how my rights will be infringed upon when marriage will no longer be between one man and one woman.
OK, now your position is clear. You feel that your rights will be infringed when there are laws to stop you discriminating against people you disagree with, and when those laws stop you persecuting them. Glad that’s cleared up.
Not agreeing with a dangerous lifestyle is not “discrimination”. You see, you are trying to frame the argument so that those who “disagree” no longer have the right to disagree, they are automatically vilified. That is a poor form of arguing a point. In fact, it proves that your argument is too weak to stand on its own.
You are infringing on my right to disagree. Again, it is an attack on my rights by not allowing me to state my point without being vilified. The next step is to create a law that would punish me for stating my point of view, removing my right to free speech.
Let’s see what you said before:
I think it can be fair to say that marriage is the bedrock of society because it gives children a safe and protected environment in which to grow up. Apart from some ideological objections, such as yours, what is the problem if that environment is maintained by two loving parents of the same gender? Is that worse than two abusive parents of different genders? Or a single parent? Your analogy with the foundation of a house doesn’t really work if you think about it – society doesn’t work that way.
I’d be interested to hear about the studies you mention – are they by a religiously tinted group? Do they conclude that abusive heterosexual parents are better than loving homosexual parents? Do they say that kids brought up by gay parents will inevitably become gay? If that’s the case, then why do kids brought up in straight homes become gay? Or do they say that kids with gay parents tend to be more tolerant, which I can understand would worry the anti-gay brigade (because the truth is dangerous). Do kids (or adults) choose to expose themselves to abuse and discrimination by becoming gay – like playing a sort of game? Or do they perhaps choose to finally admit to being what they are? That’s the “choice” part that believers like to stress about gay people – they choose to stop pretending what they are and finally admit to being gay.
Are you trying to say that you don’t have an agenda? Don’t you want to indoctrinate your kids in your beliefs?
If you’re so concerned about your kids being exposed to, and being unable to handle, propaganda, then why not teach them critical thinking skills, so they can see the propaganda for what it is? But be sure to teach them those skills before they’re exposed to the propaganda that you promote – ie, your religion (and please don’t say “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship” – that was stupid the first time anyone said it and it just gets worse). Did you teach your kids such critical thinking skills before they were exposed to your propaganda? If not, why not?
The pastors and preachers you speak about in Europe – you know they are not being jailed for anything (although it helps to shock your American readers who you know won’t actually go and check what’s happening in deepest, darkest Europe). They might be being called to task for preaching hate and discrimination – but as I hinted at before, when you’re being stopped from persecuting and discriminating against others, that doesn’t count as persecution or discrimination against you.
Should homosexuals be married in church? I’d say no, because it goes against the rules of the church: if you want to belong to the club, then obey the club’s rules. But if the club’s rules discriminate against the nature of who you are, then maybe you should think hard about whether you really want to be in that club.
As for your last point – yes, we should be able to disagree with things. That’s a bedrock of society. But it’s how we disagree that’s important. Teaching hate or attempting to pass laws to prevent people living fulfilling lives, as you live yours, is not good. That’s what we see the religious side trying to do.
And it’s the religious side who try to ensure that those who disagree no longer have the right to disagree, because of the laws that have been pushed through based solely on religious idealogy. I stand by my previous comment.
Yes, but you are leaving our some very important info, especially the fact that children need both a mother’s presence in the family as well as a father’s. There is ample evidence of the dangers of children growing up without fathers. There have not been as many studies on single fathers because they are much fewer in number. But there is ample evidence to argue for the need of both a mother and a father working together to raise the children.
Children raised in single mother households are at great risk of becoming deviants. (see chapter 2 of Guilty: Liberal “Victims” and Their Assault on America)
Abusive heterosexual parents are bad parents. No one with any sense would claim that they are. The Bible teaches parents not to abuse their children, just like it teaches that homosexuality is sinful.
Provoke has in mind as part of its meaning, “abuse”.
Being and becoming gay is a choice. One can influence that choice with propaganda, tactics which the homosexuals use (see Genesis 19) The older homosexuals had spread their lifestyle to every corner of the city, especially to the younger men (boys).
When you refer to discrimination that gays face, do you mean that not all people accept their lifestyle? That is not discrimination. All people have a choice to accept or reject ways of life that are dangers. I do not have to accept a murderer’s lifestyle and he is not being discriminated against because I do not accept his lifestyle choice.
If you call teaching the Bible to people so that they will make healthy choices that contribute to their own good and the good of society, then yes, I do have an agenda. I teach my children my beliefs, they have a choice of accepting or rejecting.
I do teach my children critical thinking skills and will prepare them for the onslaught of propaganda that will come their way throughout their lifetimes. The problem is, when they are exposed to propaganda at a young age, then they do not yet have the critical thinking skills and can be easily manipulated. That is why the homosexual agenda is focused on children’s books such as. Here is a post of homosexual themed books written specifically for children. The post is in Romanian but the books are in English.
Exposing children to the teachings of the Bible at an early age helps form their critical thinking skills plus it teaches them moral values that will benefit them and the people around them. Exposing children to a lifestyle that is dangerous will only hurt the children because they will have a distorted view of reality (that is what propaganda does).
The preachers who are jailed, are jailed for appealing to their rights to freedom of speech (a right which the homosexual agenda wants to remove by playing with the definition, changing free speech to discrimination).
Not agreeing with a person’s lifestyle choice is not “hatred” or “hate”. There you go trying to redefine terms in order to silence those who do not agree with you.
Oh and questioning the way I argue a point doesn’t detract from the validity of the point itself. My point is still valid.
You are not making a point because you do not have one. You are trying to vilify me instead of actually arguing against the point that I made.
You might want to look at my longer reply (https://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2009/12/07/homosexuality-is-dangerous-for-your-health/#comment-2686), rather than the short after thought you replied to 😉
I will answer the longer one in a bit. I have not had much time over the past week since I have been serving at a day camp for children, teaching them to love God and serve their community. I will reply soon. I chose the short one because of the time restraint.
You mention children growing up without fathers as being in danger of becoming deviants (really Erik – citing Ann Coulter? You must be getting desperate :-)). You don’t mention anything about studies involving children growing up in a loving household with same-sex parents. I guess that’s because you know that those kids are also likely to turn out pretty well-balanced – and probably more tolerant than with a mother and a father.
As far as the bible teaching that homosexuality is sinful, you know as well as I do that the laws you refer to are ritual laws. And that the “abomination” mentioned is the same as for eating forbidden food. But you’re happy to drop the other ritual laws and just keep the one against homosexuality. You try to make the ban on homosexuality into a moral law, but the bible doesn’t make that distinction.
I know you like to say that being gay is a choice, as shown by the fact that science has yet to find any evidence for a “gay gene”. In other words, science doesn’t know (yet), but you do. But that doesn’t mean that some cause outside of personal choice won’t (soon) be discovered and shown to be what makes someone predisposed to being gay. I seem to remember reading about it being due to some chemical concentrations while the foetus is in the womb. I don’t remember the details – but indeed, not directly a gene.
Anyway, science* also hasn’t found any evidence for genuine supernatural phenomena – eg, spirits (holy or otherwise) and deities. But that doesn’t stop you thinking that they’re real.
* I mean science as done by real scientists with real scientific credentials.
Discrimination is clearly visible when you look at people trying to deny other people something that they themselves enjoy. Homosexuality harms no-one, provided the parties involved consent freely. In another thread (or maybe elsewhere in this one), you cite one report of homosexual rape of a child as justification for your view that all gays are dangerous. But you ignore the many cases of heterosexual rape that litter our newspapers. Using the same standard of judgement, you must also feel that heterosexuality is dangerous. Good luck with getting that banned 😉
When you teach your kids things, they expect (and have a right to expect) that you are telling the truth. That’s why they’re kids and you’re a parent. You tell them about your beliefs, but they have no standard against which to measure the validity of your claims. That’s also why kids initially believe in Santa Claus. They are unable to apply critical thinking because of who you are to them (ie, an authority figure) – if they’ve even developed the skills at that age. That’s normal, but it can explain why there are so many children – who grow into adults – who suspend their (possibly otherwise properly developed) critical thinking skills when it comes to religion. Exposing kids to the bible only helps if they can read it and see for themselves the horrible morals and the inconsistencies that it contains. There’s a chance that they’ll realise what it really says and become atheists. (And please don’t try that “66 books written by different authors over years without mistakes” rubbish – these days, anyone with a browser can find examples of biblical inconsistencies.)
There is a fine line between freedom of speech and inciting hate. If you cross that line, then you should be alerted to that. Hate speech is not good whichever side it’s coming from. Unfortunately, we see it coming most often from the religious side – and usually directed towards gays. You don’t see it as hate speech, Erik, because it’s pretty much in line with your views.
My reply above is to Erik’s response to me at https://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2009/12/07/homosexuality-is-dangerous-for-your-health/#comment-2697
Good question Erik. Why should you stop them marrying and enjoying the same rights and privileges as everyone else?
Homosexuals have the right to marry just like anyone else, they just do not have the right to marry each other. If a man wants to marry a woman and visa versa, then that is allowed. So, according to the law, no homosexual man or lesbian woman is kept from marrying, they just do not want to obey the law of marrying someone of the opposite sex. Do not blame me or society for their desire not to conform.
First of all, the majority of people who have AIDS are heterosexual women.
Second, everywhere I’ve been, especially in the summer, I see straight men ogling 14 year old girls.
Homosexuals like hypermasculinity. Little boys aren’t very masculine.
And how many of them contracted AIDS while avoiding sexual immorality and drug use?
The % of homosexuals who have AIDS is much higher when you compare that % among the heterosexual population. Homo men are at a much higher risk than heterosexual females.
Some homosexuals like hyper masculinity (the effeminate homosexuals) while there are the butch homosexuals who are the hyper masculine and prefer the effeminate males (usually the boyish types)
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Hi, Brewer.
Again, the seventeen-year-old queer writer would like to drop he two cents.
You sound nuts. Sorry, you just do. What convinces you that heterosexuals aren’t equally promiscuous? It’s been my experience that the gay couples in my school are actually more faithful and longer-lasting than the straight ones. I’m a virgin because I haven’t fallen in love with another girl yet, and I’m afraid of pregnancy at my age. Essentially, your statistics sound totally made up, so I’m requesting you cite your source or sources.
Also, I don’t know if you know this, but, lesbians are the least likely demographic to acquire HIV. So that throws your “STDs are GAAAAAY” argument down the tubes — unless all of this hate is directed at male homo-, bi-, and pan-sexuals, in which case I must sorrowfully inform you that your hatred can be classified as possibly resulting from long-unconfronted psychological issues, and I apologize and hope you recover.
Good evening.
I never said that heterosexuals are not promiscuous. You just “assumed” that I meant that. Immorality is also among heterosexuals, and I have written against that as well. You just have not taken the time to inform yourself.
The thing is, we do not base facts on an isolated section of people’s “experiences”. We base the facts on the evidence from the statistics and the statistics say that homosexual promiscuity is abysmal.
I have cited all my sources and stats. It requires that you actually read the articles and links that I give.
I do not know if you know this, but I did not write about lesbians, I wrote about homosexual men.
Plus, it is hard to get facts about the number of “lesbians” with STD’s because many lesbians practice bisexuality and not not placed in the category of “lesbian”, although they practice lesbianism.
Wow, where have I written that I hate homosexuals? Please show some proof. Your empty claims are not worth anything. People can make empty claims all day long but until there is some evidence to back up the empty claim, it just remains an empty claim.
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Hey erik,keep up d good work. Fight d good fight of faith. Recently, in my country 2 male teachers was fired n charge for having sex with some of d young boys in a all boys school. Also at d PRIDE parade in toronto some of d gays was marching naked in public while kids walk along d road. What a world our kids r living in! God bless!
Are you serious? Oh my god! Teachers fired because they had sex with boys! o.O I can’t believe it! Hahahaha!
What was punished there is the fact they had sex with students, not because they’re gay… And for your information some teachers also have sex with students of the opposite sex (yeaaaah! Pedophiles can be heterosexual too!)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/group-sex-scandal-texas-teacher-sentenced-years-prison/story?id=17028716#.UJpmz_ulwrU
http://fr.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080114145246AAZIA3N
Your second argument is even more ridiculous! There are thousands of naked girls or boys in ads, movies, etc. Have you never seen men get undressed on the street after having drunken too much? Haven’t you noticed how short can skirts be?
Please be serious and present real facts against homosexuals… There are crazy people everywhere, don’t use them as example it’s too easy…
Erik, excellent post! Continue to stand strong for what you know is the truth. The above posts only serve to show the lack of substance behind these arguments. When confronted with facts, the only response left is personal insults. I’m glad you have the strength to stand for the truth. Praying for you!
David
Poor lad… You should have sex with some handsome man it would unbend you…
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Dear author,
I am a practising Christian and while I am not Gay my self the issue of homosexuality is one I am trying to educate myself on extensively as is the challenge that all Christians face in mine and future generations. Thank you for your post.
Question: Most of the evidence you sited has been fro the 60’s and 70’s during the aids pandemic.
Since then, education in condoms has been more wide spread and gay marriage is now a heavily promoted form of homosexuality.
What if Gay, Monogomous couples have sex wearing condoms? Are there any health problems there? If so what are they? If not , then how does it kill them aside from the fact that God finds it detestable.
Are the mental issues with Homosexuality attributed to the perceived discrimination and stress they receive from there society? would that be less of an issue as it becomes more widely accepted?
Would love to hear your thoughts
CG.
There are studies that show that condom use and the rise of STD’s go hand in hand. A condom will not protect you from God’s promises. Even the promoters of condom use have stopped using the phrase “safe sex” and not say “safer sex” because in all reality, there is no form of “safe sex” other than God’s plan, one man and one woman for life in the confines of marriage.
Homosexuals are promiscuous, that is a fact that cannot be denied. Will all people live moral lives? Of course not, but does that mean that we just stop promoting morality because not all want it? What about the people who are moral, should they become victims because some people are so selfish that they do not care about others? Children are always going to lie and steal, does that mean that we should not teach them not to steal or lie?
Hello Erik, thanks for taking the time time to reply. When you say that there are studies on the correlation of condom use and STD’s, please can you point me to them I would be interested to see it.
Also please can you answer the question regarding mental health as well.
Thanks for you time 🙂
Here is a link where you can find some of the stats on the AIDS epidemic and condom distribution in Africa.
Here is another on condom use and STD prevention.
“there is no form of “safe sex” other than God’s plan, one man and one woman for life in the confines of marriage.”
Come on Erik! Are you telling us that unprotected sex between a wife and her husband cannot lead to STD? If you use condoms then there is almost no risk. If you don’t there is. Gay, lesbians, heterosexuals, all the same!
“Homosexuals are promiscuous, that is a fact that cannot be denied.”
Do you really think all homosexuals are promiscuous? It’s like saying no woman can properly drive a car and all Americans are fat. You can’t help talking of god but you don’t respect any of his words… Your judgement about homosexuals is ridiculous!
If the husband comes to the marriage bed as a virgin and the wife also, and they remain faithful to each other in marriage, unless one of them is raped by a person with an STD, their chances of contracting an STD is 0.00000 %.
Again, just pointing out the facts about the homosexual lifestyle. It tends to produce promiscuity. Do all homosexuals sleep around with anything that moves? Obviously no but there is a high rate of promiscuity among the homosexual community.
Hello,
Obviously if you wear condoms then there’s almost no risk. 100% protection doesn’t exist though, but that is the case for heterosexual relations too. If you have protected sex, risks are identical for gays or heterosexuals. That’s obvious!
I don’t know anything about the mental issues… I know dozens of homosexual people and they’re absolutely normal! It’s just harder for them to accept their situation because it is not totally accepted by our society yet (thank to guys like Erik…). So teenagers usually suffer a lot because they feel they’re different but once they accept who they are they can be as happy as anyone else and fall in love and have a family and so on…
What’s important is that people love each other and are happy, no matter of their gender!
Have a good day!
Here is a bit of info for you about condoms and STD’s. Please pay attention to the facts.
I am sorry for the mental issues but how can society accept/tolerate something that endangers the people of a society? Should we tolerate murderers and rapists so that they will not feel bad?
True love helps the other person, even when the other person does not realize the need. A doctor first has to show you that you are sick before he can cure you because you have to want the cure.
Erik, Thanks for speaking the truth in love, even while opponents of God lie wait to attack, criticize and discredit you. I pray for you and your persecutors.
You really don’t have a life of your own do you? I hope you find your salvation in this life. God made me who I am, and showed me the path I need to take to earn my salvation. Don’t treat your brethren like sheep for there is only one shepherd. You are too conscientious to call yourself His messenger. Why do you believe you have the right to call yourself so?
You cannot “earn” salvation. That is the first mistake. The Bible is full of messengers who took God’s message and delivered it to the people so that they could hear the truth and turn to Him. That is not a new concept. All Christians are called to be the “messengers” of God.
Hey,
I’m shocked to see such close minded people here!
I don’t believe in God and I hate people like you who use “God’s words” to justify their stupidity. I never read the Bible either so I’ll ask you can you show me where in that damn book is it written that gay people will burn in hell?
For what I understood the basis of any religion (the basis, the main message, not the interpretation of extremists like you or Muslim terrorists…) is to bring peace and asks people to love each other. So what’s the problem if two men/women love each other? Why is it a problem to you personally? They are simply two people in love, that’s it. No matter the gender…
And for your information homosexuality is not a choice. You don’t wake up one morning and decide to be gay. You are or you aren’t gay. Some people like drama, others prefer comedies, some people like coffee and others prefer tea. That’s it. You don’t choose to like drama or coffee… You like it or not.
Go buy yourself a brain dude, it could help you a lot!
Please define closed minded. Do people who do not agree with you fall into the closed minded category? What is an open minded person like? Like you who calls everyone who does not agree with him “closed minded”?
I know that you hate. That is a given. I have seen that to be a characteristic of the pro homosexual crowd/liberal crowd over and over again. Here is an article that proves my point. The venom is pretty bad so you will probably enjoy it.
If you want to know God’s perspective on the subject, you need to read the Bible. How about searching for yourself to find out what God says about homosexuality.
If you read the Bible then you will see that I am not being extreme. I am just living by what the Bible says. I do not hate, like you obviously do. You seem to be pretty extreme in your hatred.
The message of the Gospel will bring peace to the life of the one who accepts It but it will bring persecution from people like you when a person lives according to the Bible. Those who follow the Bible are peacemakers. They are persecuted by those who do not follow the Bible. The extremists come from your camp.
What is wrong with two men having sexual relations with each other? Here is one article to begin with. I have several more if you really are interested in the subject.
All people are to love one another. That is a Biblical command. If I love my neighbor then I will seek his good and if I see him practicing a harmful lifestyle then I will warn him about the consequences. If I do not warn him then I do not care about him and do not love him.
Please demonstrate the gay gene using scientific evidence. Until then, please qualify your statement with, “it has not been proven scientifically but I believe that homosexuality is not a choice”. You see, even though you do not believe in God, you have faith and live by it if you believe that homosexuality is not a choice.
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In the Bible, God said that we should produce and fill the world. How do you expect to fulfil his wish when you are sleeping with your fellow men or women.Its Shame
Hello sir.
I’m a lesbian. You know, those women that don’t actually exist because they’re all ‘really’ bisexual. I am not bisexual, I have never been even remotely attracted to a man in my life. I am a lesbian. We do exist.
I’m also not promiscuous. In fact, I’m 37 years old and still a virgin. My ‘lifestyle’ consists of working a job, paying taxes, playing occasional video games and hanging out with my friends. I do not drink. I do not smoke. I do no drugs. I have a girlfriend, but we have both decided to wait until we can legally get married before we engage in physical intimacy.
I made no choice about being gay. If I could have chosen, I would have chosen to be straight, simply because of people like you who consistantly try to tell me how I really am, how I really feel, what I really do, when I know for a fact it’s all a blatant lie.
I do know how to love. I love my girlfriend deeply. I would die for her in a heartbeat. I plan to marry her when I can and spend the entirety of the rest of my life with her. I will be physically intimiate with only her in my entire life, and even were something to happen (accident, disease, crippling trauma) to make physical intimacy with her impossible, I would remain with her for the rest of my life. Know why? Because I love her for so much more than just lust and sex. Were she quadrapelgic and on a feeding tube, I would care for her faithfully through my entire life…even if she no longer knew who I was. If this isn’t love, then what is?
My hetero sister, however, is working on her third marriage.
I really am a lesbian, and I know more lesbians than I do bisexuals. Before I realized I was gay, I didn’t even know gay people existed. I was raised in a devout household. When I told my mother that I was puzzled as I was developing crushes on girls instead of boys, she had to explain to me what homosexuality was. So much for being recruited.
I have never been raped or molested. So much for that theory.
My parents are loving and devoted, and accept me for who I am…they always have.
So much for absentee parenting being the cause.
I am not a pedophile. I have not ever nor ever will be attracted to a child of either gender. My uncle, my grandfather, a cousin, and my brother-in-law are all in prison for molesting children. All are straight men, and all their victims were girls. Statistically, 95% of pedophiles are men, and of that, 92% are hetero, married men.
I don’t care if you believe me, and I don’t care how loud you want to shout your belief. Have at you. It won’t change me, it won’t change what I know and what I feel, any more than my claiming you don’t love your wife because ‘straight Christians don’t know what real love is’ would change the fact that you actually love your wife any tiny sliver.
Take care and God bless.
Reblogged this on Aah Home Care With Heart.
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I can’t believe some people would consider this article “science.” Very, very poor.
Okay, if you want to disagree, that is your choice, and I am glad to hear your opinion but I would appreciate a logical argument from you. Thanks, have a nice day.
Where did u acquire the points to write ““Homosexuality is dangerous for your health
| Erik and Elena Brewer’s Weblog”? Thanks for the post -Russell
I am not sure I understand the question, could you please expound a little more on what you mean?
This article doesn’t have a whole lot of credibility. FIRST of all, your so called “reasons” go along the lines of ‘correlation without causation’. You can’t speak for every homosexual on this earth, you don’t know how they feel, what kind of relationship they have with god, how they feel about their loved ones or significant other, OR what they promote. Until the moment you actually truly put yourself in my shoes (im a gay christian) and the millions of other gays, YOU can’t tell me how I feel or whether or not I chose to be homosexual. Science and genetics prove that these traits are INNATE, not chosen; and you really didn’t ‘prove’ anything. I do find some of this information a bit ignorant, I can’t help how you feel and I don’t want to change your beliefs, but I just don’t think this information is competent enough to change anyone’s mind.
Peace out Man 🙂
If you pay attention to the article, I focus on the trends among homosexuals. I did not try to deal with each individual case. If you look at the entirety of the moment then you will quickly notice the trends. If you want to ignore the overwhelming evidence then what you do is shift the focus to individual cases that do not line up with the trend. That way, you can overlook the evidence by shifting the focus to the insignificant. The same could be done with AIDS patients (and is done quite often, unfortunately). The majority of new AIDS cases come via the sexual route. Instead of seeing the whole and noticing that trend, you can focus on few individual cases and shift the focus to those few who are not part of the norm, which takes the focus off of the evidence. This is a classical tactic used by “liberals” (I used this word in all of its negative connotations) who back immorality as a normal, alternative lifestyle.
Again, I do not have to know how every individual homosexual feels. Their lifestyle and mindset are described in the Bible and is easily seen through their manifestations/actions.
A homosexual cannot have a relationship with God. If he enters into a relationship with God then he ceases to be homosexual. They are excluding terms. Either you are homosexual and apart from God or you have a relationship with God and are not a homosexual.
The way people think and act are demonstrated through what they promote. It does not take a PhD in psychology to understand that.
God has taken His stance against the sin of homosexuality. He loves the sinner but stands against the sin. If the sinner remains true to his sin then God is against him as well. It is his own fault for siding with sin instead of with God. Please do not deceive yourself; no homosexual will enter the kingdom of heaven. Deception is a nasty thing because the person who is deceived is 100% wrong but has been convinced or convinced himself that he is 100% right. There is no such thing as a gay gene. Homosexuality is a choice just like promiscuity (immorality) among heterosexuals is a choice.
To be honest, it is not my job to “change” anyone’s mind. I want to present the evidence and let the wise people make their own rational decisions. If I can talk you into or out of something then someone else can come along and do the same thing later and you would not be any better off. Education presents the material and teaches you HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
I really hope that this some scam to get hits on the internet, because people like yourself mr. brewer should not be allowed to raise children. I hope your ignorance and simplemindedness is not passed on to the next generation.
Okay, you have the right to your opinion but if you are going to make accusations, please back them up with some arguments. Accusations without arguments are just hot air, there is no substance.
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Wow. This is pure rubbish, god is rubbish, I use bibles as toilet tissue on a regular basis. Not u notice much difference the bibles already covered in sh*t. Secretly Erik wants to get a d*ck up his a**e. grow some balls and get a life. Stop trying to ruin other people’s u complete and utter tool.
I am gay and proud. I am disease free. I am a witch. U insult he and my people by ur every breath. If there’s a hell. Ur going to it mr.
And now we get to the heart of the situation. By the things that you wrote I assumed that one of these two things would surface, either you were in to witchcraft or homosexual. Little did I realize that it is both.
I pray for you. I know what is like to be enslaved to the passions and desires of human nature. It is not a pretty sight. I also know that people can be set free from that state. I have friends who were once homosexuals and have been set free through the power of God. I also know people who used to practice “white” magic (it is all black because it opens you up to the demonic spirit world) and have also been set free from that. It is possible. As long as you have breath there is hope for you. I pray that you will not wait until it is too late. God loves you but He hates the sin that you have entangled yourself with. He can set you free and offers a helping hand if you will take it.
You are disease free, for now, but as the old adage goes, “if you play with fire long enough, you will get burned”. If you look at the homosexual movement as a whole, the likelihood of a homosexual being disease free is not very good. If I asked enough people I could probably find some survivors of Russian roulette but playing the game just based on the info that you have of the number of survivors and taking none of the dead into account would be a pretty illogical way of doing things. You can do it but it is not advised. The best bet is to be informed of the entire situation before making a decision.
As yo using the pages of the Bible for toilet paper, the Communists of Romania and Russia did that too and things did not work out too well for them in the end. Just a thought 🙂
Wow Erik u come up with . . . (edited for foul language). Ur so called friends are still gay there just hiding it from u. I don’t need prayers. There nothing wrong with what I am or do. I am gay, I have always been gay, it’s not a choice, I didn’t chose, in the beginning I didn’t like it cos people teased me but I became strong and confident an I stepped above the judgmental nature of cowards who feared what they can’t understand. I stand strong I stand firm, u cannot change what is natural. Being gay is not a sin, it’s not a disadvantage. It’s not a disease. It’s a genetic make up in ur body. Believe it or not but the proof is there. U just won’t accept it. U can try and change us, u can try and knock us down but u will not stop us. U are small, weak, insignificant to the world. Ur opinions are nothing compared to the strength of us. We are gay, we are proud, we are natural. Like all other animals we are what we are. U are irrelevant.
Homosexuality like all other forms of sexual immorality, is a choice. You have been deceived/deceived yourself into thinking that you have no choice. All people have a choice. I choose to be faithful to my wife everyday. That is not something that just “happens”. There are still beautiful women around everyday yet I chose once and choose ever day to be faithful to my wife. I am not a dog led by instinct. I am a rational human being who lives by rational choice day in and day out. You are also a human being and have a choice. You just choice to reject reality once again.
If the majority of people on earth were homosexual, how long would it take for the species to die out? What about in the animal kingdom?
BTW, there is no gay gene. That is something that homosexuals would love to “discover” but the problem is, it just does not exist because human sexuality is a choice.
Maybe you have a low view of yourself, thinking that you are an animal, that is your choice. I do not view myself as an animal. Humans are distinct creations, created according to the image of God where as animals are created after their own kind.
Yes, but did you choose to be attracted to her in the first place? To fall in love with her? No. And thank you for acknowledging that we are human beings. We have as much choice as you do…we can choose to stay faithful to our significant others as well, and spend our lives with them…but we have no more choice in attraction and falling in love than you did. However, you get to marry and be with the one you fell in love with, hold her hand, see her every day. You, by choice, want to deny other people the same right, simply because you dislike who they are attracted to and fell in love with. We are not the ones choosing to reject reality. We accept it. It is you who are attempting to bend reality to reflect your own values, and impose it upon others.
Your question is fallacious and displays your true feeling on the subject…fear. You are so terrified of what you don’t understand that you are determined to stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalalala in order not to understand it. But all right, I’ll entertain you.
If the majority of people on earth were homosexual, how long would it take the species to die out? Firstly, that’s an impossibility that will never happen. If the majority of people on the earth were sterile, how long? if the majority of the people on the earth were elderly and past child bearing years, how long? if everyone on the earth was male, how long? Should we now lambast the elderly, the sterile, and males, simply because of a wild hypothetical that will never happen?
Even entertaining your impossible notion, if EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the planet were homosexual, the species still would not die out. Firstly, we’re not sterile. We can and do have children, and if the species depended upon it, I’m sure teeth could be grit and the deed done in order to procreate. Even intercourse is no longer necessary. We have the medical capability to reproduce without sex. That technology and those doctors wouldn’t just vanish.This seven billion strong species won’t and will never die of ‘lack of reproduction’. EVER.
Btw, for your ‘apocolypse’ to happen, that would mean the majority of people on the planet would suddenly ‘choose’ to be gay. Are you in danger of doing that? Are the straight people you know in danger of suddenly doing that? Even the straight members of my family, who love and embrace me and are ardent supporters, have no desire to suddenly ‘choose’ to be gay (as if they could), so your arguement is further pointless.
No, there is no single ‘gay gene’. Neither is there a single ‘heterosexual’ gene. So heterosexuality must not exist? There is no single ‘blue eyed’ gene, or ‘right-/left-handed’ gene, or ‘skin color’ gene either, were you aware of that? Every single one of these natural biological expressions is a complex process of several different genes working in tandem with biological and hormonal processes. Because you cannot point to a single one and say ‘haha, that is the culprit!’ that does not make someone born any less right or left handed, black or white or red, or straight or gay.
The choice for me to marry a female was made for me by God when He created me as a male. I chose to love my wife. It was not a choice based on emotions. I chose and choose to love her. The emotions follow the choice. So you conclusion is wrong. I did not just happen to fall in love with her as you paint the picture. I made and make a choice, daily.
Every person has the same right to marry as I do. The object, the whom you marry is what is restricted. So claiming that one person has the right to marry and another does not, is not a true statement.
You seem to be confusing that with the homosexual agenda, which is being imposed on children to teens in the public schools on a daily basis as well as upon adults through the mass media outlets, such as television sitcoms.
Really? You chose to love your wife not based on emotion? Why is it that I highly doubt that? You, at random, walked into a room one day, looked at her and said, “Hmm. I think I shall fall in love with her.” No, I highly doubt that.
As a child when, or before, you began to hit puberty, you realized an interest in the female form and personality. Instead of believing girls had ‘cooties’ you started to admire them aesthetically, realize you enjoyed their appearance, interaction, traits, smells. As these feelings intensified you found yourself starting to concentrate on girls, become awkward in their presence. You began to have crushes. Some you may have followed through on, some you may only have admired from afar. Eventually, as time passed, who you were attracted to with traits physical, mental, personal, and spiritual, became refined. You knew what you liked and what you didn’t like. Maybe you preferred brunettes over blondes. Maybe more relaxed girls who liked to garden over far more extroverted girls who wanted to go out constantly. Maybe you liked intellectual girls over those more creative, or vice versa. Eventually, you met your wife. You were attracted to her, because she had the traits (both in personality and appearance) that appealed to you. You then chose to spend more time in her company, get to know her, and as time went on you fell in love. Perhaps you chose to spend that time in her company, but the actual feeling of falling in love and the actual initial attraction (and process of refining that attraction as you grew up) you did NOT choose. Based on emotion, you found her attractive. Based on emotion and desire (I’d like to get to know her better) you continued to learn about her and enjoy her company. So yes, you fell in love with her based on emotion.
All the same things happened to me and my love. The only difference in the process is that you are male, and I am female. You had the ‘right’ as you see it, to take your attractions and desires and pursue them into love and a relationship. As you see it, I have no ‘right’ to do the same thing, based on the fact that I was born and grew and developed to love women too, but happen to be a woman myself. The emotions don’t follow the choice, the choice follows the emotions. You did not pick a random stranger you knew nothing about, and choose to be attracted and fall in love with her. You were attracted to a random stranger, and because of that emotion and desire, chose to learn more about her, which lead to falling in love.
And actually no, every person does not have the same right to marry as you do. Even with straight couples in heterosexual marriages, the choice is not even and is in fact inherently sexist. Let me illustrate, taking love completely out of the picture, assuming all parties are unrelated, unattached, and of consenting age.
A male is allowed to marry a female.
A female is allowed to marry a male.
A female is not allowed to marry a female. The male has a right she does not have.
A male is not allowed to marry a male. The female has a right he does not have.
Inequality.
Now let’s take into consideration equal marriage.
A male is allowed to marry a male or a female.
A female is allowed to marry a male or female.
The male has the right to marry a male or a female, just as the female does.
The female has the right to marry a male or a female, just as the male does.
Equality.
As it stands now, you’re happy because the rights are in your favor, even if they are skewed. Yes, you are lacking the right to marry a male (which your wife has) but to you that doesn’t matter, because you don’t want to marry a male anyway. It works in your favor.
It’s like saying that people are only allowed to have vanilla ice cream because that is the flavor you like, and they shouldn’t get upset because they like chocolate ice cream and hate vanilla, because they have the same right to ice cream as you do and they should just learn to like vanilla and stop complaining. Yes, the whom is restricted, but you are placing further, unnecessary restrictions on others that you do not place on yourself, simply because right now, the restrictions work in your favor.
I love that you mention the ‘agenda’ and how its being imposed on kids at school and through the media. Despite your insistence otherwise, and your choosing to ignore reams of scientific data to the contrary (hence, bending reality to your perceptions) you cannot choose to become nor coerce someone into being homosexual. any more than you can choose to become or coerce someone else into being blue-eyed or of a different ethnicity. Black children don’t suddenly become white because they are told white people exist, or because they see them on tv.
Homosexuality is innate and inborn. I was never recruited, never molested. It was never mentioned in my school or community. My mother had to explain to me what a homosexual was when I started realizing I was attracted to girls and not to boys. I did not know what it was, and yet I was one. How then did I become one, if this is something that is imposed by choice, or by recruitment, or coersion, or exposure? How could I choose something I had no idea existed and was contrary to everything around me? How was I coerced when it wasn’t ever spoken of? How was I exposed when it was never mentioned once at my school or in my extremely conservative community? If this is an addiction, then how did I become addicted whilst never having sex? I was gay decades before I even kissed a girl, or held her hand. I am a virgin even now. Is an acoholic and alcoholic if they’ve never taken a drink in their life?
If you fall in love then you can also fall out of love. Usually those who fall in love, do so out of emotions instead of being lead by their minds, a choice. The Bible teaches that the emotions will follow the will. If you choose to love someone then your emotions will follow. If you follow God’s pattern then you will not have situations where one person wakes up and says “I do not love you anymore”. That is hard for you to understand because you do not live by it. You have never tried it. This method actually makes more sense then “falling” in love and the outcome is much better. Roughly 50% of the marriages in the USA end in divorce, most of whom “fell in love” with each other. The problem is, they wake up and find that the emotions have changed and there is nothing to hold them together. Love according to God is much different. It is the glue and foundation of a healthy marriage. It is a choice that is made day by day, moment by moment, even when the emotions are not there (emotions always come and go, and come and go).
I guess I should share my story so you will not have to make up more stuff about my. Before my conversion, before I was born again, becoming a genuine Christian, I was like every other male. I was introduced to porn at the young age of 11. That messed me up for about 8 years because I had a very deviant view of women. I viewed them as sexual objects for my own personal pleasure. As bad as that was, I am glad no one introduced me to homosexuality at that time because I may have fallen victim to that evil as well, like porn. During that 8 year period, I was not interested in girl’s personality. I just saw their physical features. Just before I met the girl who was to later become my wife, I came to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I began to study the Bible. I did not know that the Bible teaches so much about human sexuality. I did not know that the Bible teaches about marriage, how to prepare for it and live in it day by day. I began studying these teachings and my entire view of the world was radically transformed. I began to realize that I did not have to find a mate, that God would do that for me. I needed to focus on preparing myself to fulfill my role as a husband instead of seeking to find the perfect wife. When God brought her, I would see her character and then from there, move to her physical aspects. I would choose to love her and my emotions would follow. I put all of those teachings into practice and I have been happily married for over 10 years. So, you do not have to assume anything else.
Again, every person in the USA has the right to marry. The only limitation is the object. A man or woman, cannot marry a cow, a goat, a sheep etc. A man cannot marry his daughter or mother her son. A man cannot marry a woman and her mother (sister etc). That does not mean that these people do not have the right to marry. They all do.
Ice-cream flavors and moral issues are not good comparison examples. One deals with morality while the other does not. You need to bring things a little closer together, in the same realm if you want to make comparisons.
As to the homosexual agenda, please read, “The Overhauling of Straight America” to see the clearly outlined steps to homosexual propagation.
Thank you 🙂
Yes, I was making assumptions and hypotheticals because I did not know you. You are also making assumptions and hypotheticals because you do not know me, my friends, or those like me.
Yes, if you fall in love you can also fall out of love. No one claimed differently. Yes, marriage and relationships are full of choices…some easy, some hard. Yes, you have to choose some days ‘is this worth it, am i going to continue to try and be the person I need to be or that they need me to be’. There are choices in love and marriage, no one is arguing that. Attraction and falling in love, however, is not a choice…and sometimes no matter how much you try and ‘choose’ the opposite, it happens…or falling out of love happens.
You claim this is hard for me to understand because I do not live by it. Your assumptions are showing, so let me be as giving as you were and tell you a little about myself.
I realized I liked girls and had crushes on girls when I was five years old. My mother told me how babies were made (she was pregnant at the time) and explained about marriage. My first, five year old thought was that I did not want to marry a boy, I would much rather marry the girl that lived down the street. I did not articulate this to my mother at the time because I did not know how.
Time went on, and every time I started to develop a crush on a girl, I would pick a boy in my class and CHOOSE to have a crush on him instead. I would write love letters, learn everything about him, follow him around making moon eyes, the whole spiel…but the actual feelings never came. On rare occasion when the object of my ‘crush’ returned my efforts I quickly shut down and ran away. Some part of me knew it was not what I wanted.
This pattern continued on until I finally asked my mother about it, and she explained to me what homosexuality was. I was raised in a very devout christian household in a very devout christian community. I had never before heard of such a thing. Though my mother and family were always loving and accepting, I myself was NOT. It was not what I saw in my sisters and friends around me, so I determined I would change it. I returned to my pattern…choosing boys that I would ‘fall in love with’ and eventually, shamefully, running away from them because I was not actually in love with them.
The last one was about five years ago. I was in my thirties. By hook or by crook, this one was going to work. He was a sweet guy, patient and loving. We were very good friends. I was determined that I would fall in love with this man. I was certain he was the one God had chosen for me and that if I just worked at it and hung in there, the emotions would come.
Two years later, he was preparing to propose marriage, and despite all my effort, determination, choice, praying, and hard work, I still did not love him or feel even the slightest bit romantically attracted to him. I could not lie to him, I could not lie to myself and pretend I felt something I did not, and so I broke it off. I felt worthless and a failure because I could not make myself fall in love with him.
Again, no abuse. No porn. No recruitment. Heck, at 37 I still cover my eyes when people on TV kiss each other. I tried with every fiber of my being, almost to the point of suicide, to ‘be straight’ and to ‘fall in love’. It never came. I prayed day and night and I cannot even tell you how many times I read the bible cover to cover or attended services, begging to be changed, begging for those feelings of love and romance. Finally, like you, I put it into the hands of God and figured when the right person came along, I would know.
Then that person came along…and she is a girl. Immediately I felt whole. Immediately I felt all those romantic, giddy, happy, joyful feelings that people sing about in songs and write poetry about. I finally UNDERSTOOD those songs and that poetry. I felt an overwhelming acceptance and love. But of course this could not be the right person for me, could it? She was a girl! So I prayed again, begging that the feelings be taken away, that I be ‘fixed’. And you know what? God answered me. He said, ‘You are as I have made you, your heart is as it should be. I will not fix what is not broken. She is for you, and you for her.’
You mention that you knew that you would see her ‘characteristics’ and then move on to the physical, when the time came for you to meet your wife. Attraction and love start with different aspects. It is not always just a physical attraction. You became attracted to her personality and her character and the rest followed. That’s wonderful. But that does not mean that your attraction to women is not inborn. Even at 11, watching porn, through your own words, it taught you to have a deviant view of ‘women’, to objectify ‘women’. Were there no men in these pornos? Why did it not teach you a deviant view of men, or to objectify men? Simple…you were not attracted to men. you watched the pornos for the women, not the men. Why? Because you were not gay. If you had been gay, you would have been watching them for the men, not the ladies. You never doubted that your eternal mate would be a female. You never questioned that your attractions lay with women. it is the same with those of us who are gay. I never doubted I was attracted to women…I simply didn’t want to be and hated myself for it for the simple fact that I wanted to be what I considered ‘normal’. Normal was what I saw around me, and that’s what I wanted. Now I know that ‘normal’ is highly subjective. There is no real ‘normal’, there is only ‘common’. What is more common, and what is less common. Everyone is ‘more common’ in some way, and everyone is ‘less common’ in another way. I am ‘more common’ because I am a white middle-class female. I am less common in that I am gay. Someone might be less common in that they have violet eyes. Someone might be less common in that they are over or under average height.
I am glad that you have a wife that you love and are devoted too. I am glad you have God in your life and that you have overcome such difficulties.
I am infertile. Even if I were straight and madly desired them, I would never have children. I don’t drink, take no drugs. I work at an office job forty hours a week. I pay my taxes. I give to charity. I like to read and write, I enjoy painting and photography. I love animals. I play video games and am a bit overfond of sweets. I like old, cheesy movies. I hope one day to travel. I do my best to treat everyone with kindness and compassion. I don’t go to bars, dislike loud parties and forceful personalities. I’m quiet, polite, and studious. I read the bible and pray every night. As a virgin I am FAR from promiscuous, and I will only ever be with one person in my life. I love her with all my heart, soul, mind, and being and I will continue to do so until the end of my life.
That is my lifestyle. It is no more dangerous or disease-ridden than it would be if I were straight. The only thing in it that would change is the gender of the person I loved…were I straight. I’m not, so the ‘he’ is a ‘she’, and that is the only difference. I cannot force myself to be straight ,any more than I could force my eyes to turn brown. I cannot choose to be straight. I know. I spent over thirty years desperately trying and nearly killed myself in the process. I choose to live. I choose to be happy. I choose to care for my fellow brothers and sisters on this Earth whether or not I agree with them or them with me.
The heart will follow the will. Believing that you have no choice over with whom you fall in love is a blatant lie that has been propagated enough to where people believe it. Like the modern idea of dating, people believe that is the way that things have always been. This is not true. The modern idea of dating is only about 60 or 70 years old, a very short amount of time when compared to all of human history, yet today, most people under the age of 80 believe that it is the only way to go (because it is all that they know).
Thanks for sharing your story. I want you to understand that I am not against you as a person. I do not agree with your lifestyle choice just like I do not agree with many people’s immoral lifestyle choice. I know that it is difficult for you to understand love the sinner but hate the sin. I see the devastating consequences of sin on a daily basis. I am a pastor and work with teens and young adults, many of whom were once enslaved to various sins. Even though they have been set free, there are still consequences that remain. I have much real life experience on these subjects. I am not writing just from a theoretical position. I am in the trenches every single day, helping the wounded and hurting.
I must point out that loving and accepting are not the same things. If a person loves you, he will try and help you with the problem that you have. Would you call a doctor loving who accepts the wound or disease as is and does nothing about it to help you?
I commend your valiant effort but must inform you that you cannot change yourself. You cannot set yourself free from the sin that enslaves you. God is the only One who can do that through the power of Christ. You can try until you are blue in the face and will fail every time. I know. I was once enslaved to porn and tried to break the addiction on my own. I failed miserably for 8 straight years. God set me free when I turned the reins of my life over to Him. He can do the same for you.
Quite simple, the actions were always heterosexual and the women were objectified.
You are trying to combine genetics and sexuality together. I cannot choose my genetics. I can choose my sexuality and its manifestation. One is an inborn structure and the other is a moral choice. I know why you want to compare the two, because it is a little trick that gets the reader to think on genetics when pondering homosexuality even though there is no evidence of a gay gene. It is a sly trick but a trick indeed. I just know how to see through the smoke and mirrors and that is why I do not fall for it. Unfortunately, many people do not know how to cut through the propaganda and they fall for these little deceptive tricks.
I am glad that you do many good deeds. I have a question, if you obey every aspect of the law every day for years on end yet just break that one little law about not murdering a person, are you innocent or guilty? All the “good” does not cover the “immoral”. Like I, you have only one hope, forgiveness by God and a transformed mind. God offers but you have to take Him up on it. I hope you will before it is too late.
You simply aren’t listening and your posts only continue to show that. I have followed both God and Christ since I was born. Thirty years of prayer, fasting, and bible study, and devotion and nothing changed. I have prayed and read the bible longer than you have even been alive.
So to say I will be changed if I give myself over to Christ when I have done so every single day for over thirty years and have not changed shows you have not paid attention. It was not simply me changing myself, it was my effort combined with my devotion to God and included me putting my fate completely into His hands with full faith that He would deliver me. He did. He delivered me her. He told me with his own voice that I was as He created me, and that He would not fix what was not broken. I do not need you or anyone else to validate my experience. I heard it directly from the horse’s mouth, as they say.
You continue to point to my immoral lifestyle. I work, I play video games, I give to charity, I pay taxes. Where is the immorality? Again, let me remind you, I am a virgin. I have not had sex with man or woman. You keep claiming it is actions that condemn me…then point to the actions I have taken that are condemning me?
I see the devestating consequences of people ‘loving the sinner but hating the sin’. Suicides, misery..I have been there and felt it myself. I have committed no sin (by your own measure, actions, not words…I have done nothing) and yet I am condemned in your viewpoint and the veiwpoints of too many like you. Firstly, it was Ghandi that said that, it is not written in the gosepls. Christ said, ‘by your fruits you shall know them.’ I look at the works, the fruits, of people like you. You can offer it in all the love you believe you have, but the fruits tell the tale. The fruits are decades of futile misery, self-deprication, being thrown out of homes and ostracised, struggling for a change that never comes and desperately living dishonestly or finally taking your own life out of frantic misery. Those are not good fruits, by anyone’s measure. You may think they are loving but they feel anything but loving on the recieving end.
You liken it to a doctor treating a wound. The problem here is there is no wound. It is more like a doctor insisting to a healthy patient that they are ill, prescribing them constant medications with horrible side effects for decades over something that does not exist, until the doctor not only makes the patient sick, they ultimately kill them in misery and then lament that the patient simply did not want to become well.
The act of having sex is a choice. Your actual sexuality is not. Insist on the opposing all you want, that’s fine. All the insistance in the world will not make you correct. Your actions were always heterosexual because YOU are heterosexual. Inborn, unchangable, innate…you ARE heterosexual, and no matter how hard you try, you cannot make yourself be attracted to a member of your same gender. You can fake it, you can indulge in the behavior, but deep down you will never be attracted or fulfilled by someone of the same gender. For me, it is the same for someone of the opposing gender. I cannot change that fact any more than you can, and God has told me he will not change it because He did not make a mistake. Who am I, or you, to tell Him that He has? Your words only continue to insist that I turn to Him, ignoring the fact that I have told you repeatedly I have done so all my life and continue to do so.
I wish you all the joy and happiness in the world. My hope here was simply to try and make you understand the bad fruits you are sewing, the pain that you are causing others unintentionally. I have made my points and will not keep repeating them. I will not be back here again. My relationship with God, what I know to be true, and the happiness I now have in my life remain between God, me, and the source of that happiness, and I have no shame in that.
I do urge you to read, as much as you can. Sites like religioustolerance.org and others show both sides of the coin (your stance, and mine). Truth remains truth no matter how much light you cast upon it. God gave us minds and reason to question, explore, and learn, always. If you only ever learn and study what you and those of your same mindset have written, you never learn. I urge you to ‘know your enemy’ as it were. Truth is truth. It will not change if it is truth, so question it, explore it, validate it.
As I said, I wish you joy and happiness. I have said my piece, and will not be responding again.
God bless.
I am sorry to have to keep correcting you but you are making simple theological mistakes about God and the Bible. No one is born a Christian. We are all born enemies of God because of our sin nature which we inherit from our parents. That is a fact. You do not have to teach children to lie, cheat, steal, be selfish etc. You have to teach them not to do these things. The only way a person can become a Christian is to be born again. (see Christ’s teaching in John 3)
Also, for those who claim to have been a Christian and then walked away from the faith just prove by their actions that they were never actually born again. They just played church or went because their parents made them.
The Pharisees were also great students of the Bible. They fasted and prayed. The problem was that it was all superficial. They had never been born again and did not want to be.
I read every word that you write and pay close attention. I have demonstrated that by pointing out your mistakes.
All of us are sinners. If you have ever looked at a naked person of the opposite sex (on purpose) then you have committed sexual immorality. If you have looked at a person of the opposite sex, or the same sex and played out a love making scene in your mind then you are no longer a virgin, you have committed sexual immorality. You are not as pure as you make out to be. Have you ever called a person an idiot? Have you ever thought about killing someone? Both of these are equal to murder in the eyes of God. That makes you an immoral, murderer. Another, you are attributing a lie to the voice of God. God has spoken categorically against the sin of homosexuality. If you say that God told you homosexuality is okay then either you are lying, have been deceived, or the Bible is wrong. The Bible has yet to be proven wrong so the only other option is between the other 2, either you are lying or have been deceived. St. Paul constantly reminded the people, “do not be deceived” and “do not deceive yourself”.
Suicide is the consequence of an immoral lifestyle.
Gwen, thank you very much for sharing your story. It can’t have been easy in light of the “love” that Erik shows anyone who doesn’t accept his flavour of belief.
Be happy, love who you love, believe what you believe.
Everyone can believe what he or she wants. That is not the point. The point is believing what is correct because when you believe what is correct then you do what is correct.
Thank God he gave me more than a book to live my life by…i.e. a Brain with common sense! One that i can use to make my own judgements of right and wrong…
What if what you think is right and wrong is the exact opposite of what another person thinks is right and wrong, how do you decide who is right if you have no set standard? Would you attempt to build a house with no set standard of measure?
Hey Erik,
Good work brother! Break down those walls of ignorance!
First people need to have the intellectual honesty to admit that these biblical laws didn’t come out of a vacuum. God himself didn’t come down and proclaim any of this. Rulers and the priestly class were charged with establishing order over ignorant, primitive people, as well as securing power and societal prestige for themselves. As there was no science, and people were superstitious at the time, they invoked the idea of “God” as the basis for their moral authority and as a mechanism of social control. “I’m king because God annointed me and my bloodline.” “These are the rules, as decreed by God. Disobey and God will punish you.” Its not a difficult concept. Adherence to these rules have changed over time. Women no longer have to marry their rapists. We no longer tell slaves to submit to masters. We no longer believe in the divine rights of kings. Its called progress. Today we know that homosexuality is caused by pre birth in utero hormone levels. People are essentially born hardwired with their sexual orientations. Its been proven. We also have people with different gender identities. What you people are asking is for these people to deny themselves sex and relationships with people they are attracted to. Worse, is to ask a homosexual to be in a heterosexual relationship. Its not fair to either party. God is not pleased. People deserve to find happiness and love in this world. If a heterosexual man can find a partner he’s attracted to, and love, and enjoy having sex with it, why isn’t a homosexual person entitled to the same? You’re asking people to accept a second class lifestyle in regards to their personal happiness. How dare you.
Women were never commanded to marry their rapists. Rapists were put to death. There were no second offenses when it came to rape and murder.
Slavery is alive and well today in the modern world. Also, slavery is a stain on mankind’s hands and not God’s. God condemns slavery, as written in the Bible.
That is a theory with no absolute proof. Not all scientists agree on such statements.
Where is the smoking gun of proof? Plus, how do you explain people who stop being homosexual? How do you explain former homosexuals who are now heterosexuals? What about bisexuals?
If a murderer like to murder others, if that makes him happy, should we be forced to allow him to do what he wants?
I have realised there is little point argueing with Erik. He is a small minded person attacking what he does not understand. He says he is not judging homosexuals but he clearly is, the very text in his blog is proof. He will go around in circles, to the point that he tries to confuse u. He has no real answer. I am a gay man, I was born gay, I have no choice over what I am as Erik has no choice of what he is, however the choice we do have is what is right and wrong. Unlike most rational and logically people, Erik needs to be told by a book what is right and wrong, he cannot learn for himself what is right and wrong. I have learnt through life what is. For example a rapist is wrong for the following reason: he/she has caused emotional and physical pain and distress, forced there needs and wants on a person or people, damaged that said person, violated that person.
What Erik is doing is wrong for the following reason: he can cause emotional pain, forcing there wants and beliefs on a person. He will say I am not forcing anything but the essence of his post prove otherwise.
Lets look at what is wrong with homosexuality: …………I can’t come up with anything. But let’s use Erik’s posts: homosexuals pass STD’s to people, righto and so do heterosexuals so one flawed reason: next? The bible says homosexuality is a sin, this is an ancient belief by uneducated and inexperience people so that’s flawed. He says gay marriage will ruin the world, umm how?
The bible says marriage is 1 man and 1 women, umm the bible also describes and approves of a king marrying his man slave.
But the point of his blog is homosexuals so let’s show him what will happen: gay marriage will cause gay men and women to have equal marriage rights as str8 couples ( nothing wrong there), gay marriage will allow gay couples the same divorce rights as str8 marriage ( nothing wrong there). Gay marriage will allow gay couples to have a legal document showing there bond of love(nothing wrong there). So what will gay marriage do to the world? Ummm will let gays marry.
So over all Erik an his followers need to grow a brain and make there own decisions based on real world modern facts. Take a look around u, homosexuality is no more dangerous then heterosexuality. Go out in the world with a non biased view and take a look. Go to a gay club or bar, watch for urself without ur bible mentality and see what it’s about, we are not asking u to be gay cos u can’t chose to be gay, I was born gay, as a str8 or bi person was born that way. Stop hiding behind an ancient text or belief system and experience the world, oh or are u scared it might change ur small minded view. Trust me changing ur bigotry attitude would be a good thing. Just accept people for who they are. I accept u believe in god and frankly I don’t want to change that but don’t use gods word to discriminate other people before u know what that person actually is and what there life means.
I will respond to the rest of your accusations a little later. Until then I will leave a link to a pic that best describes you with your open mindedness, so open that your brain seems to have fallen out 🙂
If you would read what I write instead of what you assume I write then you would see that I am not attacking people but the ideas that lead to dangerous actions that produce devastating results in people’s lives and for society as a whole.
Do you have any scientific evidence that proves that you were born gay other than your own opinion (which that and 50 cents may buy a coke in some places)?
All of us are taught about right and wrong from someone or some source. That is not something that we just invent one day. It is like the other things that we learn in life, how to eat, how to talk, how to walk, how to read, how to write etc. You did not teach yourself these things, you learned them. If you were not taught the difference between right and wrong you would lie, cheat, steal, murder etc. because that is the nature of man. Some people learn the truth about what is right and wrong from the Bible, others believe theories such as evolution which teach whatever is right for you is right, or in other words “relativism”. If you have not been taught then you are not a “rational” person as you claim. You have just contradicted yourself, nice try though.
How have you contradicted yourself?
You wrote the following:
Earlier, in the previous paragraph I pointed out that all of us are taught what right and wrong is. You claim that I am not rational or logical because I allow the Bible to teach me what is right and what is wrong. I pointed out that all of us are taught about right and wrong, in fact, we are taught absolutely everything that we know. Hence your contradiction.
Heterosexuals who practice immorality (which is what homosexuality is) pass on STD’s. You deliberately left that fact out. I am against heterosexual immorality just as much as the sin of homosexuality.
One of those “uneducated” people is the wisest person who has ever lived other than Jesus Christ, king Solomon so you need to get your facts straight again. Your conclusion is flawed because you deliberately overlook facts so you can arrive at those wrong conclusions.
Clearly explained here. More dangers here.
What the Bible actually teaches (not necessarily what man has practiced).
Legalizing gay marriage opens the door for all kinds of marital perversions. It also gives homosexuals access to children to deceive them with their propaganda.
Please enlighten me to how I have contradicted myself. U clearly see what’s not there. U accuse me of making an evil choice and attack me for that choice(which is not an actual choice but I am writing so u understand) , this every blog is an attack on homosexuality. Anyone with half a brain can see that. U think u are giving smart responses against our replies however u are making urself look one minded and dumb. Why? U use one source as justification for ur replies. U clearly have not experienced life or u would not have this intolerance. U say the bible days homosexuality is a sin. I have read that book and no where does it say that. It gives more evidence to support slavery and the death sentence but then ur turn around and say “it’s the context, ur misreading it or taking it the wrong way” well explain to me why the context is in error when in fact isn’t it meant to be the wholly true word of god. So in that case I can sell my daughter to a master to use her as a servant/slave.
U teach hate and intolerance whereas I believe in equal rights, people should be allowed to love who they want with no judgement, no intolerance, no accusing. We don’t want gay rights, we want basic human rights to be able to marry who we want. We are not asking u to marry someone of the same sex because u did not chose to be str8 it’s how u were born, we are askin that u accept us for who we are and what we want. Religious control or intervening has caused no end of issues look at ww2, was caused due to a hate of Jews. The which trials was Christians killing so called witchs to cause fright and control over people to make them do what u want. I see ur wife hasn’t commented on anything here, is she allowed or do u control what she does as well? One day when or if (perhaps u already have) u have children, I hope one is born gay or lesbian because then u might understand its not a choice. No amount of preaching will change a person on the inside. U may think u have cured a homosexual but I can guarantee u, there now living a lie, once gay always gay. No choice, I didn’t chose to be gay as u didnt chose to be str8. U have always found women attractive as I have found men attractive. No one has the right to change that. I would not try and cure u of being str8 because there is nothing to cure, I would never make u gay because its not possible, u can’t be made to be gay u either are or aren’t. It’s really that simple, sorry u don’t understand that.
Oh another point is like to give u. U say evolution is a theory, as u think being born gay is also. Theory is a topic in which extensive study is done and the findings are documented on paper, so in that case the bible is just theory. It’s not physical evidence it is merely theory, a documented study from people who truly didn’t understand the world so wrote it the best they could. Knowledge was limited then so they tried to understand it with divine beings however most people in this world now understand the world more and can explain things correctly without the need of a divine being being the reason. I will end this Reply with a simple MSG. Do not push ur beliefs on to the world, do not try and control the world, do not accuse people and do not judge people. U have no right to do it. Believe what u want but don’t use that belief to create hate and intolerance towards people who don’t agree with u.
First all these people were not so ignorant and primitive as you state. You claim that homosexuality is pre-wired. How do you explain how heterosexual people suddenly switch to homosexual relationships?
The root cause of homosexuality is spiritual. It starts with a rebellion against the laws of God. You may have been born with a predisposition towards homosexuality,but it doesn’t mean you have to act on it.
Your problem is that you let your fleshly desires rule over the desires of God’s
spirit.
Nikko,
You don’t need the Bible to know that homosexuality is wrong. Everything about it is wrong. It goes against nature. All the medical conditions described by Erik show
that it is a filthy, unhealthy lifestyle. Again your sexual cravings override any common sense. That’s your problem.
Oh please bob. Get a clue. There is nothing filthy and unhealthy about. It’s as natural as anything else. U say to Nicholas m “what about people who switch to homosexuality” that’s easy they didn’t. They always was, but because of people like u, were scared to admit who they really are. I have no problem. I don’t need curing, I don’t need saving, I don’t need u telling me that my life is wrong. Everyone with ur attitude are murders, indirect murders. Young people commit suicide because u tell them there evil or filthy, they try and turn str8 but its not possible so they can’t deal with life anymore. Because of u. Think about that before trying to tell me I have a problem. If u don’t want same sex relationships then fine I’m not asking u to. Don’t expect me to pretend I am anything less then I am. Erik talks rubbish and repeats himself over and over because he can’t truely answer our replies. My sex life is no more unhealthy then urs. If u don’t like it then fine but keep ur small, double standard mind shut. Keep ur nose outta our business. U all have the same smart arse answers. Always attacking what u don’t understand and using ur religion to support ur hatred and bigotry. Unlike past times, we will stand up against u, u will have no control over us. Threatening me with hell makes me laugh out loud. U have ur beliefs but don’t call our lives wrong. Practice ur religion but don’t use it to make hatred blogs like this. Simple. The best thing for the bible is to be used as toilet paper. It does more harm then good. It’s all contradicting garbage. I made my own mind up with out being brainwashed by a book. That is all. Don’t bother replying because its highly unlikely ill reply. Why? Because I am over u telling me the same rubbish over and over again. I have said what I need to say. So let’s agree to disagree hey ………
Nikko,
The acceptance of homosexuality has increased by leaps and bounds in the past
20 years or so. When I was growing up the word homosexual wasn’t even said without blushing. 95% of the population thought homosexuality was a disease, what
suddenly changed people’s attitudes? What changed the attitudes was the media jamming down homosexuality down are throats endlessly. The brainwashing finally took effect and now about 50% of the population (or more) think homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle. This country is on it’s way out. Every country that loses it’s moral compass is destined to suffer.
I’m sure you are one of those Christian bashers and Bible haters. You hate Christians and the Bible because it condemns your lifestyle. The truth always comes out sooner or later.
Ok bob. I hate the bible cos it teaches hate. However I do not hate Christians. Not by a long shot. So don’t try that one my friend. I dislike bigot, hateful people who attack others for no reason. Homosexuality was thought of as a disease because people didnt understand it. Now scientific research has shown otherwise. Most people are smart enough to not be intolerant and hateful.
Disagreeing is not the same as bigotry. Disagreeing is not intolerance. With your terms of bigotry and intolerance, you attempt to stifle the other arguments against homosexuality. Presenting only one side of an argument without letting the other side have a say is propaganda, which is what pro homosexuality is.
Today right is wrong and wrong is right. People who follow or try to follow the laws of God are ignorant and intolerant. Homosexuality is described just as an alternate
lifestyle. Radical feminism is destroying families and emasculating men. Selfish women claim murdering unborn children is their right. Maybe if they stopped fornicating they wouldn’t have to have an abortion. Again, the problem is that people cannot control their sexual lusts. Whether it is homosexuality, fornication,adultery, bestiality, or pedophelia. God states he will judge the world because of fornication. Jesus also called marriage between a man and a woman a
“concession” because of the prevalence of fornication. If Jesus called marriage a
concession how can he approve of all the sexual practices mentioned above?
This is Satan’s world and the vast majority of the people have been deceived.
The lost are more lost than ever and it is getting more and more difficult to be a
Christian these days. However, these times have been prophesied from the beginning and the cycles of judgement and purging will continue.
If you hate the Bible , you hate Christians. Christians base their belief system on the Bible. Do you think that Jesus was a hateful person? His message was a message of love. He said : “Repent and sin no more.” We all have rebelled against God. All of us. The difference between Christians and non- Christians is that Christians have acknowledged their sin. Granted their are Christians that talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk.
Nikko,
Erik and I understand much more than you know. You want to use the Bible as toilet paper. That statement pretty much sums up your state of mind. You are so firmly entrenched in your sin that only a miracle would save you. No one can force you to do anything. You choose your own path.
If u understood anything then this blog would not exist. I will admit the bible does not say anywhere that homosexuality is a sin.
My state of mind is fine. I am not led by any laws other then the laws of my country. In my country we have free speech, homosexuality is legal, and we can register our relationships no matter same or opposite sex. Discrimination, hatred and bullying is not tolerated.
If you lived in Germany during the 30’s and 40’s would it be okay to murder Jews just for being Jews? Those were the laws of the country at the time.
We are not reading the same Bible then. The cities of Sodom and Gommorrah were
destroyed because of homosexuality. The Bible describes homosexuality as an
“abomination”.
I repeat no where does it say homosexuality is a sin. Maybe in ur version. But as I said we are going around in circles. But I understand ur mentality and u hate me and others who are gay. U hate homosexuality so u hate homosexuals. So ur teaching hate.
The word homosexual or homosexuality is not mentioned in the Bible. God describes the act because He knows how people like you try to manipulate the meaning of words. You cannot manipulate the meaning of actions.
Well said sir
God ‘s laws supercede any law of any country. I see your mind is made up Nikko, that is your right. God gives man free will. I just think your going down a pathway that leads to nowhere.
I am sorry but god doesn’t have any say over my countries law. Simple. The laws of my country are enforced not gods.
I am going down a pathway of enlightenment and truth. U are going no where. Following a book written by man to control people and use scare tactics to do it.
Let’s say this. Perhaps one day religion will be a distant memory, once people learn the truth and learn that science and fact are the way to go. Without religion there would be less hate, less wars. Not saying the hate and wars will go completely but will be less. No Muslim religious wars, no other religious wars. Nothing. Peace will only be possible without intolerance in the world.
Religion is not truth. In fact many religions are as bad as no religion at all.
All truth originates from the creator, who is Jesus. Jesus is the source of all truth, even science. There is no conflict between truth and science. Jesus created science. I also hope religion goes away also.
We all hope for peace and no hate in the world. There is a great deceiver in this world which causes all these problems. The majority of the world is deceived, and that’s why the problem’s persist. Man in his own vanity thinks his own reason is enough to solve the world’s problems. Only God in his wisdom can solve the world’s
problems. This is why Erik and I try to instruct you on God’s viewpoint. It’s not because we hate you.
Do one thing for me Nikko….. just once get on your knees and ask for God’s spirit to come into your life. Even if you feel like a fool doing it. Even if you don’t understand it. At one time in my life I had hit rock bottom and I was forced by the power of God to get on my knees and humble myself. From that point on I began a slow unravelling of my former lifestyle. As I was obedient to the word of God I was given more and more revelations of truth from him. Once you know the joy of enlightenment you cannot go back.
I can love you Nikko, but I cannot agree with you. It’s just impossible.
I have a question for u. If homosexuality is that unnatural then please explain why animals have same sex sex on a regular basis?
I answered that in this post.
Interesting arguement however there’s a flaw in ur post. Let’s just say for second, I am Christian so I believe with all my heart that God ( playing the part well with a capital g) created all life on this planet. So all animals were made exactly how he wanted them. Now with that in mind, he created animals with the homosexual urge. He created them as they are. So again please explain the difference between gay sex with two male/female animals and gay sex between two human ( also animals) males/females. You don’t see them being intolerant and discrimatory towards other animals who have sex with another animal of the same sex. For an so called intelligent race, some of us really think stupid. I’m sure it’s not ur fault, it’s just how u have been taught to think. Unlike myself who was taught by my parents to work the world out by myself, discover my own truth. They both are not religious however they did not put there non religious beliefs on to me, they let me go to church, read the bible, read all types of information about the world. Anyway back to the animal kingdom. Back in the Stone Age, we used to kill an old tribe leaders child. It’s in human nature, we just chose not to act on it because its not a nessercery action for us. A lion acts on instinct, on the instinct god programmed into it (its genes) the same genes that create homosexuality. If god gave it the ability to engage in homosexual acts then why not us? We are all animals at the end of the day. All programmed with the same inner instincts, just some animals have certain instincts closer to the surface then others but all are the way of life. Of course u will now go ahead and pick my so called contradictions and illogical flaws out. However u cannot deny the fact that God created all life as he wanted it, if u believe in god anyway.
Now u tell me there is no mention of homosexuality or homosexual in the bible, wow at last u admit it, so clearly it’s ur own opinion ur voicing not the bibles. Ur using gods name to justify ur ignorance and hatred.
Bob, u say to me I hate the bible so I hate Christians, well in that case u hate homosexuality so u hate homosexuals, as does Erik. It’s the same logic. So ur teaching hate. Erik has stated several times he hates the sin not the sinner however using ur logic bob Erik hates both the sin and the sinner.
Is it acceptable among people because it happens in the animal kingdom? If that is the case then I have a question. Many animals eat there young, so is it okay for human parents to eat their offspring?
In the pride of Africa, when a new dominant male lion takes over, his first act is to kill the cubs of the previous dominant male. Should a stepfather be able to murder his stepchildren as his first act as her new husband? (since it happens in the animal kingdom then we should accept it, right?)
Accepting something because it happens in the animal kingdom is quite a futile way of thinking.
Nikko,
As regards to homosexuality in the animal kingdom…..
All I can say is: Aren’t you more than an animal?
Bob, no humans are not more then animals. A highly evolved and intelligent species but still an animal. Like it or not but we are a species of primate.
That is the homosexual mantra, you are an animal so give in to base instincts instead of living in the light of the knowledge and reason that God has given to you.
Right. Ur question is irrelevant, humans where not given that instinct, it doesn’t apply to us. We do not share all base instincts so we would not act on every animals instinct. Good try though Erik, ill give u a point for ur effort. Although we do have a physical aspect if us that kinda competes with other males. Our penises are shaped in such a way that its possible to remove someone’s speem from a vagina to then sow ur seed. Even though we don’t have the kid killing instinct we (being males) have a pysical way of assuring ur sperm is the one that fertilises the egg instead of the last tribe leader or recent partner.
Now to reply to ur next comment. Lets get something str8, god gave u everything ur born with, correct? So that would include all physical aspects, and biological aspects including instinct. So tell me, wouldn’t ignoring what god gave u be a insult to him? Or removing what he gave u? Off topic sorta but its one thing that confuses me with Jews, why remove the foreskin if that’s how god made u, why remove what he gave u. Surely that’s an insult in its self, basically saying f u god, I’ve decided to take away something u made. U see what I mean?
How can u say its not right to express feelings and attractions that god supposedly gave u be it instinct or genealogy. Base instinct is part of what and who we are as a species, we have different instincts to say a male lion, however we still share some instincts amongst all species. Granted males and females are born to reproduce however maybe the odd gay gene is natures way of population control. So even though ur biologically made to reproduce, chemically ur not given the attraction to the opposite sex. We are as nature intended, the fact is, there is nothing wrong with us or u biologically, chemically or physically, it’s ur mental make up that’s the problem as is anyone’s with ur opinion. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle, it’s not a fashion, it’s an involuntary chemical make up that makes us attracted to the same sex. Believe me when I was younger I tried my best to be str8 because I felt I wasn’t like most the boys but then as I grew older, I realised there are many more boys like me, boys who like boys, I was 16 when I accepted it, and realised there’s nothing u can do to change what u are born as. We make a lot of choices in our life’s, what cloths to wear, what food to eat, what car shall I buy, do I believe in god? Do I have a religion at all? Do I dye my hair blonde? However one thing we cannot chose is who we fall in love with or better who we are attracted to, u will never be attracted to men as I will never be attracted to women. It’s the fact of life and its about time u realised that no amount of preaching or bible lessons will change what we are inside, we being u and I.
One final note, we where not given knowledge, Homo sapiens as a race have had to learn everything we know today over 200,000 yrs. it’s a slow process, we will continue to learn until we finally go the way of the dinosaurs. With knowledge comes progress and knowledge can only be found from science and research about the world and cosmos. One day we will travel the galaxy and meet many different alien races with many different cultures and beliefs. Some will find our culture hard to believe but they would have evolved beyond judging, beyond intolerance and beyond preconceived assumptions and one sides views. I am not perfect, I have my flaws, but I can accept in knowing I am a good person for not judging something I don’t understand. Before I comment or debt anything I make sure I have all the facts from several different sources, never will I use 1 book to make my decisions by.
The End.
So you get to pick and choose which animal instincts apply to mankind and which ones do not. You are just shifting the goal posts to fit your theory. That makes your theory, not based on facts and evidence but instead on your personal preferences.
With your description of the workings of the male penis, you contradict your theory of homosexuality as being inborn. The male penis is created for the sexual act in the female vagina. That is why Adam and Eve were created and not Adam and Steve.
God gives mankind a sex drive for pleasure and procreation. These two aspects are to be fulfilled within the confines of marriage between and man and woman. The fact that sin came into the world and corrupted mankind does not mean that God is at fault. Mankind chose to sin and sin now distorts all that God created to be good and perfect. Sexual deviations all of them, came as a result of sin, not of God’s creation. Sinful man thinks that he knows better than God so he listens to his desires instead of God’s clear instructions. One of the results of this attitude is sexual immorality, specifically the sin of homosexuality. God is not at fault for your homosexual desires, you are because you feel that you know better than God (in the Bible, this is described as worshipping the created instead of the Creator).
As far as circumcision goes, that was specifically for the Israelites until the coming of the Promised One, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. It was given as a sign of entering into Covenant (contract) with God. It was a physical sign of a spiritual truth. It was a daily, physical reminder of that contract with God. A man sees his penis daily so he has a constant reminder of his spiritual life and his covenant with God.
BTW, there is no gay gene. There are scientists who would love to discover it but it does not exist and has never been proven. The fact that you keep mentioning the gay gene lets us know that you either have been deceived or are purposely using propaganda tactics to deceive others.
Where did you get that little piece of information from? I know its origin and the idea (theory) traces back to one book, the origin of species so you also make your judgments based on one book. Good day.
Also, if you would actually read my articles, you would see that I have linked to a plethora of articles and studies that prove the point I am trying to make.
Ok let’s get something str8, I am not picking and choosing instincts, ur just using that to tr and disprove me, however there is something u over looked, not all animals share the same instincts, vegetarian animals have instincts to eat plants whereas meat eaters have instincts to kill other animals to eat meat. If u got ur head out of the fictional bible and read real science u would understand how instinct and genetics work.
Saying man is responsible for even animals sins is pathetic, before humans evolved on earth, animals acted the same, it’s in there DNA. I will admit I made a mistake there is not a gay gene, however sexual orientation is coded into our DNA not genes. So u see science has proved sexual orientation is coded in us before we are even born. Do ur research as I did, to fix my mistakes and give u the true facts. I’m happy to provide links if ur to blind to find it.
Now in sense of anatomy, did u know the male g spot is located in his anus, the prostrate. Funny that hey. So as u can see inside the anus is designed for stimulation, as is the vagina.
Lets see if u can explain this, if there was Adam and Eve at the beginning, then aren’t they performing incest, if u believe the bible eve was created from Adams rib so in thT case eve had all the genetic and DNA of Adam which u make him in some weird twisted way her brother, now they had kids which then bred, so there all performing incest. Now the bible says god let them have incest but after several generations he prohibited it? How? If we all came from 2 people then we are in fact still having incest. We are all still directly related. So how does ur intellectual thicket explain that now? So as u can see evolution would be proved here as u cannot start a species with two individuals. Not without genetic mutations which would cause deformities and disease. Which would have caused the death of the human race before it had started. Why I brought this up was simple, u use the bible to justify ur replies yet the bible is full of more contradictions then science is.
Once again, there is no genetical proof of the existence of homosexuality. Based on your claim, a rapist would say that his genetics made him the way that he is. A pedophile could then claim the same thing. That is the problem with making statements without genetical proof. Based on your slippery slope “genetics”, even a murderer could claim that that is the way that he was born.
You can mock me all you want. That is your choice. Be careful with mocking because there is a price to be paid for that kind of action. Secondly, I am university educated and all of my education was secular so I was forced to study biology including the propaganda of evolution. You seem to believe that born again Christians were all home schooled or went to Christian schools and universities.
Animals do not sin. They live by instinct and do not have the ability to reason as humans do. Mankind on the other hand, contrary to homosexual belief, is rational with the ability to reason. Mankind is not led (has never been led by instinct). What you call instinct, the Bible calls sin nature. This nature is explained in the Bible. Here is what it looks like.
• Adultery (sexual immorality, sex outside of marriage, sex with a married person who is not your spouse)
• Fornication (any form of sexual relations outside of marriage, both physical and mental, included pornography and sexual fantasies)
• Uncleanness (in a moral sense, a result of sexual immorality)
• Lustfulness (desiring to have what is not yours, what belongs to someone else)
• Idolatry (placing anything else above your relationship with God)
• Sorcery (witchcraft, horoscope, communicating with the dead or with spirits)
• Hatred
• Fighting
• Jealousy (anger toward others because they have what you want, you either want them to lose it or you want to take it from them)
• Anger
• Rivalry (I raise myself up by putting you down)
• Division (small groups that bicker and fight with other small groups)
• Heresies (not totally believing the Word of God, believing something contrary to the Word of God)
• Envying
• Murder
• Drunkennesses (intoxicated from any form of drug)
• Reveling (nocturnal carousing, going from party to party, living a party lifestyle)
I have done the research. You can find scientists to give you the info that you want, depending on their agenda. Not all scientists are in agreement on the subject of homosexuality. Some lean toward the belief that it is inborn and try to “prove” this theory by specifically looking for facts to prove it and discarding those that do not. I know which research you will give me.
Genetically speaking, science confirms that all humans are related. We have a common ancestor(s). Incest was forbidden during the time of Moses, more than 2,000 years after Adam and Eve. Plus, you have to take into account that during the days of Noah, the population was reduced to 8 people, of which we all come from.
It’s built in to our DNA. Are u not reading correctly. And where did I say I thought u where home schooled, I know what education u did, I know a lot about u mr Erik brewer. I do my research, u bully and harse people. Oh so animals do not sin hey. Well in that case humans do not sin, as we are animals. Thank u f
Murder is built into our DNA? Is rape? Is pedophilia? Of course not. Just like homosexuality, they are deviations, results of being sinners. They are all choices that people make.
I wrote what I did about my education because of your mocking references about only studying one book. Animals do not have the ability to reason and are not rational, unlike humans. Animals act on instinct. Humans have a choice to overcome instincts (sin nature). I know that you cannot accept this because it destroys your “that is just the way I am logic”. Again, what if murderers made the same appeal and were treated the way that you want homosexuals to be treated?
It’s built in to our DNA. Are u not reading correctly. And where did I say I thought u where home schooled, I know what education u did, I know a lot about u mr Erik brewer. I do my research, u bully and harse people. Oh so animals do not sin hey. Well in that case humans do not sin, as we are animals. Thank u for finely admitting that. Humans and wild animals are all animals so u cannot deny that if animals do not sin then we clearly do not sin so homosexuality is not a sin. I will mock u all I want, I’ve read ur rubbish about mocking and it’s all horse manure, everything u write about is horse manure. Ur a dangerous man, u corrupt people with false facts. I bet u pray on weak or vunerable people.
U see I am not universally educated, I don’t need to be. I learn my facts through real life experience and facts. U previously said I get my info from one book, no I don’t, I get my info from several sources. Reliable and prove able sources. Ur bible is inaccurate, repetitive, it’s full of stolen ideas. The story of Jesus was with a few small differences told in a pagan belief long before Christianity was ever thought of. The bible is a manmade belief, written by man, to control the gullible, but me mr brewer many like me are not gullible. We will seek the truth and the truth is not in the bible. U threaten me with punishment from god for mocking u, my life has never been better since I went out my way to show people like u the errors in ur ways. Never been better since I got away from mainstream religion.
U still never explained how its possible to come from 2 people and not have incest?
U spill all this garbage bout this and that but u urself have no proof to back up ur claims. Christian Science is not real science. It’s biased science, real science is a research of the truth no matter what it is. Evolution is a proven fact but ur narrow sighted view doesnt want to believe it because u would lose ur control over people. Funny that. I bet u get a kick outta controlling people am I bet ur so frustrated u can’t control me. I feel sorry for mrs brewer. I bet u control her and make sure she has no say over anything. By ur picture u can see ur a nasty man, ur face is evil, u are evil.
I didn’t answer a few of ur points so I will now. Pedaphilia is a mental disorder, some murders have mental disorders, even rapists have aw tail disorder, it’s all based on imbalances in the brain. Completely different from inbuilt DNA so has no relevance what so ever. Again ur using stupid examples to try and prove ur statements – epic fail mr brewer.
Secondly, humans once acted solely on instinct before knowledge came about. Back in the Stone Age some 200,000 yrs ago we acted on instinct.
Now ur view on incest, if we came from a & e then all there offspring bred and there offspring bred which means we are all having incest, by ur logic that would mean u and ur wife are brother and sister or at least very close blood relatives because there would only be one bloodline from a&e. if there was 8 people left when Noah was around then there all still from that one bloodline which means there still incest couples. And do the math mate. How can 8 people grow to a population of almost 7 billion in what 4000 yrs. u say I have the facts wrong but simple mathmatics disproves ur theory str8 up. (I came up with 4000 yrs considering Christians believe the world is 6000 yrs old so if Noah came 2000 yrs after a&e, again a crazy statement considering dinosaur fossils are carbon dated to anywhere from 200 mill and 65 mill yrs old, with the oldest fossil record going back about a billion yrs). U say I cannot accept humans act beyond instinct when in fact it is u who cannot accept that they do. What u call sin is natural for the most part. Even murder is natural, I may not agree with it but humans are a violent species, fact. The only thing that is similar between murders and homosexuals is there acting on human nature. U say we do not act on instinct however every day we do, we breed to survive ( instinct) we have self preservation (instinct), we eat (instinct), need I go on? The fact is human nature is human instinct, we are biological animals, we may be able to think rational but we cannot not deny our basic instincts. To say we can is a sign of a delusional mind. U think in such 2 dimensional ways its why u cannot understand or accept the real facts.
U say u where educated so u didnt get ur facts from one book but the fact u w stated u where forced to study biology says that u already had ur preconceived ideas from the bible. U know though at the end of the day, I cannot change u as u cannot change me, that at least is one thing we can agree on. I just hope I can educate u in the facts of life.
On a side note, have u ever read or heard of a book called a course in miracles?
Ah, so you move to the old adage, “it’s a mental thing”. You are correct, in a way, it is mental because all sin begins in the mind. It is not an “illness” as you would claim (oddly enough, homosexuals do not want homosexuality to be a mental disorder yet they throw that same argument at pedophiles). If were a disorder or disease, then the person is no longer held responsible. Again, you want to say that humans have no form of self control and live purely by instinct.
Also, comparing a survival instinct like eating to a sexual preference is like comparing apples to oranges and anyone who has ever sat through one hour of a class on logic could tell you that the two are totally different.
Then you move to more propaganda with “carbon dating” which is extremely misleading and unpredictable. There are cases when carbon dated parts of the same animal turned up evidence of two totally different ages (being off by about 20,000 years). Then, there are other examples of animals that died in the 1930’s being carbon dated as having lived 20,000 years ago.
Since you have bought the lie of macro evolution, you believe that the human species is evolving to a better state with each generation. Actually, according to the Bible as well as modern medicine, genetically speaking, we are breaking down. The Bible teaches that mankind was created perfect in every way. The problem is that sin entered the picture and began to break us down generation after generation. The genetic code is not improving, it is breaking down more and more with each generation.
Bringing mental illness in for some things is dam relevant. Recent research has proved that a lot of things are caused by mental illness, including people talking to imaginary friends, or having voices in there head telling to murder. Comparing pedophiles and homosexuals is like comparing apples and oranges. There completely seperate things. The only reason u like to say they are is apparently the bible says it is the same, in that case eating shellfish is a sin, as its prohibited in the bible but of course u laugh at that example because like all bible bashers u pick and chose what u wanna obey. Now me for example I chose my wrongs and rights based on what really is wrong or right, for example anyone who hurts or murders another person is wrong, homosexual pedophiles are wrong, heterosexual pedophiles are wrong, bullying other people is wrong, so on and so fourth. Now a hetro or homo living there life without hurting anyone is right. U say homosexuality is dangerous for ur health, how ever using a lot of ur so called evidence I will tell u heterosexuality is dangerous. By using simple math, more of the population is hetro, which puts accross the point that out of all who are positive with stds more of then will be heterosexual. As there’s more heterosexual people that’s stands to reason that there will be more infected heterosexual people.
Now survival instinct is no different to sexual instinct. U cannot control instinct, instinct is uncontrolable. Humans are animals, animals have instincts, science proves this over and over. U blatantly ignore the real facts. U accuse me of warping my “facts” to prove my claims yet u sit there and do the same.
Of course carbon dating is unpredictable, it’s impossible to give an exact date, we can give our best estimate of the age of something, 20,000 yrs is a small give or take compared to ur theory on how old the earth is science proves the earth is around 4 billion yrs old but u believe the earth is 6000 yrs old. That’s a big difference and even carban dating is not that off. I see u couldn’t explain away my disproving of Adam and Eve, funny that. Or my proof that if we are from Adam and Eve that that would mean incest is alive today with all of us. If we started from two people then there would be one blood line which DNA testing and genetic testing shows there isn’t.
So macro evolution is a lie is it. And how are we genetically breaking Down, u might be which would explain ur attitude and primeval thinking, but I am quite far evolved beyond those first humans, modern medicine doesn’t show that and well for the bible, the bible is pure rubbish and fantasy so that doesn’t prove anything. The bible is a manmade creation and I literally mean manmade, god was created by man to control kingdoms. No god exists. Quite funny to think god is dog backwards haha but anyway man was never perfect, never will be we all have flaws. Sin or no sin. It’s funny to think that u say we must obey god however god gave us free will but then gets annoyed when we don’t do what he wants. Or on the other hand Christians claim god has a plan for me so that would mean everything I am is gods will, I am exactly how he wanted me homosexual and all. It’s contradiction after contradiction with u. Even ur blogs contradict each other. In a reply in this blog u say new borns are enemies of god cos they inherit there parents sin yet in another blog u claim the child is innocent. How can u be innocent but yet inherit sin. It’s illogical. If sin is evil that would mean the child is evil see where in going with this. Of course ur brainwashed so can’t see reality as it is. U attack what u do not understand, them try and turns things around to confuse people but didnt work with me, I see right through u. U claim ur not homophobic but this very blog proves otherwise making ridiculous claims about homosexuality. Ur scared that ur lose control over people. U love telling people what to do. Ur religion brings hate and war to the world, ur no different to Muslims bombing America. Christians have been responsible for many deaths because someone didnt agree with u. As its now illegal to kill someone who doesn’t agree with u, u try and accuse them of being sinful or evil, u pray on the weak like third world countries because those people will Do anything to get food and clothing. U call in humanitarian aid, I call it taking advantage of the vulnerable. By all means help the needy but leave ur bible at home, u don’t need a bible to feed or cloth someone or provide medicine. It’s like saying oh here’s food but u gotta believe in god as not believing in him caused this. I suppose its god punishment that I have asthma even though I developed it at a time when I believed in god with all my heart back in a time I may have agreed with ur blog, cos I honestly thought the bible was fact. I was very very wrong.
Now back to genetically breaking down please explain how that’s happening. Considering we now live longer and are healthier then ever before.
Erik and Elena brewers weblog. Ummm where is Elena’s input? All I see is one sided arguments from Erik. Is mrs brewer allowed to comment, I’d like to see her input if u please.
Her name is on the Blog so that the homosexuals will be disproved from the start when they try to jump to the conclusion that I am a latent homosexual because I do not accept the sin of homosexuality. Her opinion is just as mine is. 🙂
I’m a little confused sir, why would you have to prove your not homosexual. Having a women’s name next to yours does not prove a thing. Why would anyone think you homosexual just because of this blog and why do you feel you have to prove your not homosexual. Do you really care what people think you are as long as you stay true to yourself. Very odd that in this age people have to prove to everyone else that they are what they say they are. I am me, I am what I am, and people can believe it or not. I just am. I am how I am meant to be, no one can ever change that. I stumbled across this blog via a friends pc and I found it quite disturbing. You claim you are trying to help free people from sin, however I do not understand how you can do it. It’s not your place to judge or condemn. Only God can tell me what is right or wrong. No person has control over me, only God has. He is my master and I am his slave. The true God is beyond writing, I do not believe in the bible yet I believe in God, I believe men have corrupted God’s word. The only word of God I believe as authentic is the words that come directly from Gods mouth when he speaks directly to me. God is not happy with the way his word has been interpreted. God has a message for you through me, “stop what you are doing my child, it is not what I will, you must listen to me, I do not want this to continue, you must respect everyone for what they are, do not try and change them as they are how I want them my child. I love everyone of my children. ” God bless you my brother.
I am not trying to “prove” anything. I know the homo tactic and their first line of attack would be to cry “homophobic”. When that did not work, the next line would be “latent” homosexual. I removed that one from the get go. There is nothing to prove. It has already been proven.
This is false. I was once enslaved to sin and human nature. God set me free from that slavery and made me a new person. He radically transformed my life. He has been doing the same for the past 2,000 years. Just because you have never experienced it does not mean that it does not exist.
I have not judged nor condemned anyone. Sharing that God has already condemned sin is not being judgmental or condemning. It is being honest, looking out for people’s good. Not telling them this would make me judgmental and condemning because I would not want to inform them of the danger.
Sorry to inform you my friend but if you do not believe in the Bible then you do not believe in the One True God. You believe in the god of your own imagination. God is not separated from His Word.
Not every human is a child of God. Yes, every person is a creation of God but one must be born again to become a child of God. All God’s children are adopted into His family. This is what the Bible (God) teaches and if you do not like it then your problem is with Him. Have a nice day.
The point is sir, you do feel you have to prove a point. That very statement of having your wife’s name there is you trying to prove you sexuality. Even my wife said to me, he is covering something by just doing that.
I am sorry to tell you but you have been mislead as with all bible reading Christians. Yes there’s one true God and yes we both serve him, however he keeps trying to tell his children that the bible is corrupted, it served a purpose once but now it’s been corrupted by man. The bible is no longer Gods word, it is mans version of Gods word, and it pains me that you have been caught in that corruption. You have been manipulated into doing what man wants you to do, not God. God wants us to live in peace, not judging and condemning people, homosexuals like heterosexuals are Gods creation, there is nothing wrong with either. It is mans intolerance that says its a sin, not Gods. You must understand that you preaching against what you call the homosexual lifestyle is in fact preaching corruption. You might not see it but you are acting homophobic, sexist, intolerant, judging. You hate homosexuals because you believe there condemning your life, however that is not true, you are condemning your own life focusing on such trivial things. God has been trying to tell you that your wrong, but you won’t listen, the comments in this very blog are evidence of that, granted some are colourful responses but God has tried but you ignore him. God wants you part of his kingdom but currently he cannot allow it. He sees great potential in you if only you’d focus on the true issues in the world. Is it really worth the risk to ignore this warning, do you really want to deny yourself a place in heaven and eventually to the paradise in which he will remake? Have you ever wondered why you are met with such resistance to your preaching. That its self is proof to you mistakes. I meet no resistance to my teaching because I teach the true word of God, the word he dictates to me. I don’t tell people there in sin, I explain the path God wants and people except that. You ignore the facts that science has proven. God created the earth 4 billion years ago. Evolution is what God planned, he created the earth so eventually life would flourish. All the scientific evidence you deny to yourself is all evidence to Gods perfect creation. Unfortunately what he missed was how man would corrupt his word to justify mans own selfishness. I ask you again Erik, is it worth the risk? The fact is when you find out the truth, it will be too late, if you ignore it now. Don’t be stupid, don’t be brainwashed into the corruption that you are following. You love God so do what he really wants not what man says he wants. God could force you to see the truth but he doesn’t as he wants you to learn it for yourself, however if you don’t, when paradise is returned to earth, you will be denied entry and exiled. So I ask for a 3rd time, is it worth the risk? Is it worth throwing a lifetime of following lies when in fact you have the opportunity now to correct yourself. You will want to resist this but just think about it, but don’t think to long. 14 yrs ago God forgave you and gave you the chance to learn the truth, however as a lot of Christians do, you got caught up in the corruption.
There is no need to prove anything. Dismantling an argument before it is used is not the same thing as a need to prove anything. You are deliberately overlooking that point because it makes your argument invalid. Your wife can assume anything that she wants, that let’s me know how deep the propaganda has sunk in with you and her. I clearly explained that this is a homosexual tactic, call a person who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle a homophobe or a latent homosexual.
I have not been misled about the Bible. The historical facts about the authenticity of the Bible are available for anyone who has intellectual integrity and puts forth the slightest bit of effort to do the research. I will give you some links that may help you.
A simple reading of the Gospel of John chapter 1 will inform you that God and His Word are One.
There are some internal references that deal with the perfection of the Word of God.
Psalm 119:160
Psalm 12:6 – each word that is in the Bible comes directly from the mouth of God and is tested and perfect. We have those words in the original and our own maternal languages.
II Samuel 22:31
Not agreeing with a lifestyle is not the same as hating or condemning. You just do not want to accept it because it destroys your argument once again.
If you are not persecuted (meeting resistance) for your preaching then you are not preaching the right message.
– Jesus was persecuted
– He taught that His disciples would be persecuted
– they were all martyred with the exception of St. John
– Paul was persecuted and taught that anyone who lived and taught righteousness would meet resistance (persecution).
It is very obvious that you have not read the Bible, for whatever reason.
Macro evolution is not true, just a belief system based on little actual evidence and mostly interpretation of what people want the evidence to claim. Evolution has death coming before sin while God teaches that the result of sin is death. The two contradict and cannot both be right. Either you believe evolution which annuls God or you believe in God and His Word which annuls evolution.
Right Erik. I have a challenge for u. Now u always tell people to prove there claim. Now I see no hard proof of anything u claim. I see pick and chosen things to try and prove ur claims.
Now this is simple. Prove there’s a god, prove the bible is the word of god, prove the prophesies in the bible really were writen before they happen. I can 100% guarantee u, u can not prove anything. Me on the other hand I can prove my deity exists, it’s not a divine being but it’s the true creator of the earth and all the other planets. All that u preach is hot air, that is all.
You still haven’t explained to me why u need a bible to give aid to the needy?
So I am now waiting. No circular rubbish. I want hard evidence.
In response, (1) fulfilled prophecies:
The first and foremost miracle of the First Christmas was the fact that about 300 Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled through the birth, life, and death of Jesus Christ, which began to fall into place with His birth. It was foretold through the prophets of old that the Messiah (Christ) would be born from the seed of woman (without the help of a man) or in other words, a virgin birth. When we refer to seed in the Bible, the seed always refers to men yet in this case, in Genesis 3, God speaks plainly to Eve, that the male that will come through her will crush the head of the serpent. The seed of Adam, or help from a human father would not be needed for the birth of the Messiah. I do not want to cover all 300 of them but just a few will be enough. Another prophecy was that the Messiah would be of the lineage of Abraham (from the Hebrews). Mary, the mother of Jesus, was of the nation of Israel, of Abraham’s lineage. Another prophecy is that the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah and be born in the town of Bethlehem. Jesus fulfilled all these requirements upon His birth. The prophet Isaiah is the last prophesies that we will speak about. He wrote his prophecies about half a millennium before the birth of Jesus. Look at what he writes about the birth of the Messiah:
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)
The Messiah will come through a virgin, just as God revealed in Genesis 3.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
I would like to point out a few more specific things that Isaiah predicts about the Messiah. First He will be male. Second, He will sit on the throne of David, meaning that He comes from the lineage of David. The evangelist Luke describes the birth of Jesus for us. Luke was a well educated Greek who knew how to research things very well. He studied all of the information of the life of Christ before writing his Gospel. Here is what he reveals:
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” (Luke 1:31-33)
Jesus could not choose His birth-place, parents, or sex yet all of these things were just as predicted. He was born a male, to a virgin from the lineage of David. His birth fulfills prophecy after prophecy. I would like to take a look at the lineage of Christ from both His mother’s and His father’s side. The lineage of Joseph is presented in Matthew 1 while the lineage of Mary is presented in Luke 3. I will not take up space with the lineages here but I would like to comment that both sides of Jesus’s family tree lead back to David and Abraham (just as the prophecies foretold).
1. Israel – God said that they will always be a people once He brought them into existence and they have been. They are here today even though many atheists have tried to destroy them (Stalin as one example).
2. The over 300 Old Testament prophecies (some written 1500 years before His birth) of the first Advent of Jesus Christ. Could not be a coincidence because we do not have a number large enough to show the odds against all of them being fulfilled in One person.
3. The resurrection – yes the one with Christ Himself but also the one that I experienced. I was spiritually dead in my sins (a slave to sin) and God brought me to life (changed my life and set me free from slavery to sin).
Three real proofs, now go ahead and hit your knees in repentance (agree that God is right and you are wrong).
By the way God does not hear the prayers of non-Christians (with the exception of their first prayer of repentance).
Erik Erik Erik, u still haven’t proved anything. Prove to me that the so called predictions were in fact written before the event. You cannot prove to me the original event was written and predicted before the event. I still guarantee u can’t do it. So I am right and you are wrong. You say u were saved from sin by the bible, that may be so but that’s because you want it be real and are gullible enough to believe in a fairy tale. I mean seriously women was made from a rib, I can’t stop myself laughing at how stupid that sounds. And a virgin birth, that’s funny also. If Joseph wasn’t the father then Mary was a whore (don’t u dare remove that word, unless ur scared its the right word) and got preggas from some random man. Simple sanity and logic show that the bible is illogical and complete rubbish ( before u ask who/what gave me authority to call the bible rubbish, I did, cos I am in charge of my life not u or ur imaginary friend). You people use the same rubbish over and over again, I ask u to give me hard evidence that things were written before they happened and all u do us state some of them. Just cos its in there doesn’t mean it was written before it happened. The bible has been rewritten, retranslated so many times its clear to any normal person that its corrupted. You cower behind ur book quoting empty passages from it, threatening people with hell and gods wrath, but u know why it’s all horse manure. You and ur bible is horse manure. Until u can prove to me with hard accurate evidence, we will just go around and around in circles. And again u still didnt answer why u need bibles to give aid to the needy. Seems you avoiding that question because u know very well u don’t, and they reason u take them is to pray on the vunerable. You are no better then rapists who pray on women who are desperate for a man and end up getting rape by some jerk. You pray on the weak and needy to enrol in ur cult. That’s all u run Erik is a dangerous cult. Homosexuality is not dangerous for ur health, u are. I wonder how many people have killed them selves due to ur bullying and pressure about sins. U give Christians a bad name because u are an extremist, no different to Muslim terrorists, the only difference is u use mental munipulating instead of violent force, but both result the same, in hate, pain and hurt. Ur a control freak, ur fighting a losing battle. More and more people are discovering the lies in the bible and misleading rubbish u and others like u preach about. Erik why are u obsessed with homosexuality, I see so many blogs about it, no wonder people would say ur a homo urself, and no I am not saying u are. Jeez we don’t want u being a closet gay. Ur give gays a bad name too haha.
But anyway, please try again with proving what I asked, cos I still see words but no actual proof. You can’t prove the bible with the bible. It doesn’t work that way, u can’t just say its in there so it ha to be true cos its not.
Have you ever heard of the Dead Sea scrolls? They prove that the text of Isaiah predates the birth of Jesus Christ. Isaiah predicted several key points about Jesus that He fulfilled point by point. That is tangible evidence that can be researched.
Oh I know of those and I also know there is much opinion on there age, they’ve used carban dating to try and work out there age but as u’ve stated u say carban dating is misleading and unreliable, but of course the opinion changes when something suits u. So they are far from tangible proof. There carban dating estimated orgin is somewhere between 408 BCE to 318 CE, very big difference there, but of course as per usual u will take the BCE time because it suits u, u will believe in carban dating of these because it suits u. The fact is they could have been written before but then again they could have easily been written after. So that proof is not reliable. But let’s also bear in mind the scrolls were also very degraded and only partial parts of texts survived, so again not to reliable either. So Erik try again. U again contradict yourself, u can’t disagree with carban dating of fossils etc but agree with it when it’s used on the scrolls. So again u prove nothing.
You are the one who uses carbon dating when it suits your world view and then deny it when it does not. In fact, in an earlier post you actually used and example dated according to the carbon dating method and used it as evidence or fact. Now you claim that it is skeptical. Then, to cover it all up, you actually accuse me of doing what you did. Your brain must be tired from all of the mental gymnastics. You have used the old “switching the goal post” tactic which most skeptics accuse Christians of doing. Oh the irony is endless 🙂
It is pretty much an agreed fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls predate the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. So, again, the Bible stands and the critic is left with his empty accusations.
When have I used carban daring to claim my world view and then deny it. I firmly believe in carban dating, it is u who does not. You asked me if I heard of the Dead Sea scrolls, in which I have. And I said they have been carban dated to have been written somewhere between 408 BCE and 318 CE. Meaning they could have been written before Jesus’s alleged birth but then again they could have been written after his birth. So the Dead Sea scrolls are not tangible proof for either of us. So who is the one playing mental gymnastics? So as I said give me hard evidence that the bible predicted Jesus’s birth etc. Using scientific study’s the Dead Sea scrolls are not proof at all. There’s a chance they could be but at the same time an equal chance they aren’t. I read a Christian write site stating that the bible was written 1500 yrs ago by 40 different men. That’s a contradiction considering it would mean the bible was written after Jesus’s life. I have been doing my research. And it seems you the one with the empty arguement not me. You just can’t except that I am right and ur wrong. Sucks to have someone to beable to debunk everything u throw at them. Oh and btw after doing my research, I found that homosexuality is not called a sin in the bible, it is only the act of anal sex that is, due to the eras bad hygenie and the bibles obsession with cleanliness. It goes in the same category as not having sex with a women for 7 days after child birth. You tell me to know the context of the words but yet u urself do not. Instead you use it for you own hatred towards certain people. It’s clear to me now that u are homophobic and you use the bible to justify ur bullying of the gay community. As do a lot of Christians. It’s funny really cos I bet most of ur debatists don’t actually read the bible, whereas I look through every piece of evidence including so called evidence from ur side. Another site I found was even worse then u, basically they are doing and preaching as u do except for one huge contradiction that clearly u are clever enough to avoid. They admit that dinosaurs never lived with man and lived millions of yrs ago as science has proved however they stated man was created 6000 yrs ago. Now that contradicts the bible completely considering it clearly states that god made the earth and all its inhabitant in 6 days and rested on the 7th. So before man there was no earth for dinosaurs to live on accordin to the bible. So they make u look slightly better. But ur still wrong, all of you are wrong. Humans evolved from apes 1 million yrs ago. Or at least that’s when the first evidence of a homo species appeared. Homo sapiens appeared approx 200,000 yrs ago. Homo sapiens being the scientific name for modern humans. Oh and before u try and debunk evolution again I have some info for u that will be of interest. Certain spider venom is only dangerous to primates (eg apes and monkeys) that spider is the funnel web spider, it is only dangerous to humans and primates, funny that. So that’s pretty tangible proof there that we evolved from apes and in fact are a species of primate. You can try and argue against it but the facts are there in real life. Even our DNA is very similar to chimpanzees. My point is there are plenty of measurable proofs to support my arguement but only one book that has a rocky back ground and has no firm agreed origin is ur proof. So please continue to give me evidence but I guarantee u, it will create an empty arguement. Have a good day.
Here is one example.
Haha u seriously need to reread it, I still was agreeing with carban dating, I was stating a scientific fact that its not accurate to the yr. it is an approx time. So ur example is just u trying to debunk me when in fact it’s showing ur a tool. The problem is u are losing the arguement so now ur trying to play mind games. Well ain’t gonna work. I have used carban dating and have supported carban dating it is u who have been ignorant to its reliability. You doing exactly what u did to the lesbian commenter in comment 1 putting things in our mouths, u accused her of calling u names when she wasn’t Nd ur accusing me of using carban dating wen it suits me. The fact is I believe in carban dating, it is accurate to a degree, naturally it cannot give u an exact date of orgin or death of a species Etc, but it can give u a rough idea, hint why I said carban dating has given the age of the Dead Sea scrolls as being from somewhere between 408 BCE and 318 CE. Naturally as a narrow sighted Christian ur say it was written in BCE but the evidence doesn’t prove that either way. So the Dead Sea scrolls are not evidence at all. They don’t not prove my side and they do not prove ur side. I see u had no smart come back to my pretty solid proof of evolution that time. The problem is u people don’t actually no what evolution really is so u mock it. Whereas I know exactly what Christianity’s about so I can point out its flaws, errors, contradictions Etc etc. we can go at this until the cows come home or u can just admit that u have little proof to support ur arguments. I do thank u tho. Uve made some original arguments but in the end there still flawed. See un like ur self I dot actually have a one sided view, I look at the evidence from both sides and if I was wrong I’d admit it. I have no ego to boast, I have nothing to gain from supporting either side so in the end I search out the truth. The bible is not truth. It is the greatest story ever told but just a fictional story none the less. Have a good day.
I read what you wrote. You conveniently sight the credibility of carbon dating when it suits your worldview and then sight its flaws when trying to date the Biblical texts, also keeping to your worldview. The evidence does not dominate or dictate the outcome with you. You are not simply following the evidence wherever it leads. Your worldview dictates how you interpret the evidence.
I have studied biology as well as the theory of evolution in 3 different secular schools so I have been well informed of the process, from atheist professors who openly promoted their worldviews. I have also studied the other side of the coin and seen how flimsy the evidence for maco evolution is. It takes a lot of faith to believe in maco evolution because there is not much proof, just a lot of theories that you just have to believe. You try and talk down to me like I was some sort of home schooled backwater country boy who can barely read and write. It is not so my friend. I am a well educated man. Because of my education, I have been taught how to think for myself and not WHAT to think.
No I point out its slight flaws as in carban dating cannot give an exact yr. it can give an estimate, u are the one using it to support ur bible views so ur using it when it suits u not me. I support it as its pros out way it’s cons unlike the bible. Don’t try warping my words. I know exactly what I said.
As u being educated. I laugh at that. U were raised by Christians u are a Christian. Ur education is nothing. If u was so educated u would never believe in god. No educated person would so don’t act like a backward country boy. For you info I am also extremely educated so I know exactly what I am talking about. And I have provided u with plenty proof for evolution yet ur small mind can’t comprehend it. There is so much proof supporting evolution and a old earth theory but u ignore that on favour of ur fantasy world. So as before I challenge u to give me testable proof. U clearly are running out of so called proof for ur argument. U say u think for urself but anyone who is religious cannot think for themselves. U are told what to think. A book tells u what to do. I for one think for myself and I know the truth. I am sorry u have been brainwashed by a lie and I hope one day ur see the truth but with ur closed mind worshipping contradiction and lies. Evidence of real science is all around u. Next ur be telling me the world is flat and gravity doesn’t exist. If u do I will have to laugh at u even more then I do already.
I did not convert to Christianity until I was 18 years old. I was not “raised” a Christian as you seem to think. In fact, I thought that the Bible was a book of bedtime stories for kids until I actually started to study it. I had been told a lot about the Bible by people like you who just knew that the Bible was full of mistakes and contradictions. I did not know at the time that they had never actually studied the Bible in depth. They were just repeating what someone else had told them, much like what you are doing. You assume a lot about me just like you assume a lot of things about God and the Bible. Assumption are not worth anything. I would advise you to get your hands on a Bible and study what is there, not what someone else has told you in there. You will be amazed at what you find. I know that I was and still am.
The earth is round and the Bible teaches that, why would I believe that the earth is flat?
I forgot to point out one thing Erik. U accuse me of only seeing evidence to support my worldview but you do exactly the same. Your a hypocrite Erik. As I have mentioned before, ur losing the argument so now ur trying to warp my replies to suit urself. When in fact I haven’t changed my view once. I admit science has flaws, but as I said before the pros out weight the cons. Science is more reliable then religious text. I’ve read plenty of religious sites that say this “I still believe in the stories in the bible but as yet I have no proof to support them”. As I said in my last post, next ur be telling me the world is flat, and the earth is the centre of the solar system And universe.
Modern archaeology has been busily proving the claims of the Bible, usually while setting out to “disprove” them.
I want to challenge you to read the following information:
New science of archaeology
Modern historical discoveries
Again u have not proved me with real proof. That is Christian sided proof. Not real scientific proof from a scientific site. I will not take anything from a religious site as proof. Why? Because it is a one sided argument. I have stated to u time and time again, I want non biased proof. A real scientist is one who looks for the truth no matter what or where it is. So called proof I a religious site is one sided. They look for biblical proof within completely no biblical research. For example I saw somewhere that proof there was a global flood was in the evidence of marine fossils on mountains. If ur as educated as u claim u are, u will know that is hardly proof of a global flood. The marine life was never up a mountain, the fossils are from when that range was below or at sea level before some geological event like colliding of continents etc etc. that has been my point the whole way through this debate. I use real scientific facts to back up my claim. I want to see u give me real scientific proof to back up urs. Oh u can’t because if there was that proof, we would all no it by now. Not just u religious guys who see evidence where it is not. Just like u say earthquakes are caused by gods wrath. Where in fact it’s scientifically know. Earthquakes are caused by geological events like tectonic plate movements. The problem is religion is losing, people are smartening up. Science shows the real truth and religions manipulates scientific proof to try and prove there book. Not just that religion is the cause of conflicts as I have said once before. Christians accusing Muslims of worshipping a false god, Muslims accusing Christians of worshipping a false god, etc etc, Christians saying the Quran is false and Muslims saying the bible is false, each claims to have proof to support each others literature but the fact is neither of u have any proof worth looking at. All ur proof can easily be explained by usin scientific methods and come to rational explainations. You can’t explain away contradiction to a person is well educated in bible study and literature. And yes I am qualified in all the areas u mentioned. Do u really think id still be debating with u if I didn’t have the knowledge and education to back my self up. Only a fool would attack something they truely don’t understand.
Since you cannot debate the argument you attack the site. That is a typical atheistic tactic. There you go shifting the goal posts again. 🙂
I like how you take a claim from a site that I never referenced to and then use that argument against me as a Christian. That argument assumes that the mountains were as high as they are now back when the global flood actually took place. When water blows out of subterranean spaces the terrain and topography of the land will change drastically. Some atheists claim that if it rained enough to cover Everest, the earth would have melted because of the heat. That assumes that Everest has always been at the height that it is now.
BTW, counter my arguments instead of making up arguments to counter. I have left you enough proof to keep you busy on my actual arguments. There is no need to make stuff up, unless you really cannot counter my arguments. 🙂
I will let your own quote speak for itself as my response to you:
The reason I ask if you are qualified is because you make grave mistakes on simple passages that cause me to think that you are not well trained in reading and interpreting languages and literature.
Says the one who cannot get me proof from. Non biased source. Typical theist response. U have given me no different answers then any other Christian I have debated with. You have not proved anything as u have no proof. U follow an empty belief. U follow a book that has no substance or relevences in modern society. It is a flawed book used by flawed people. And for the record I am not an atheist. I have told u that before. Clearly u don’t read and understand what I write. No wonder ur responses are uneducated dribble, second hand replies. You say I have no original claims yet neither do u. For a person who doesn’t believe in science u sure try and use it to back urself up. Ur a hypocrite and desperate. The bible is against science, u cannot use science for proof as science has no proof for ur bible and ur claims. You view is an ancient view that came about merely due to the people of the time it understanding the world around them. All biblical claims have been disproved time and time again. Science has shown us that extraordinary events in the bible are actually quite ordinary and it has given us an understanding of how the world really was created, when it was created and how life evolved from simple single cellars organisums to complex life forms that we have around today. Biologically humans are un impressive, our internal workings are virtually no different to any other mammal. Only thing that sets us aside is our brain size, nothing more, nothing less. It saddens me that people like urself cannot live in this world without thinking there is someone lookin out for them, that without a god, u are nothing , u live and u die. Fact is we are alone, but do we just live and die, hell no. We have several life’s. we are reincarnated. This life is not the beginning or the end, it is a continuation of a life before. When we die, it’s only the body that dies. It’s an empty shell, a vessel for our soul, which then Reflects on its previous life ready to be reborn. There is no life after death because technically we don’t die. That’s my belief. That is the only part of my belief I can’t prove with evidence, I can only tell u that I am certain it happens due to past life regressions. And da ju va. The difference between my faith and urs is I dont believe in god per say. I believe in the symbol of god, and symbol of the goddess. The god being the sun, the true creator of the earth and the goddess being Mother Earth. Science proves both those claims. It has been an enjoyable time debating with u but it seems our time is at an end. I have proved all my claims, u have proved no of urs, so there’s nothing more to debate. Have a pleasant day an good luck for ur future.
I just noticed the rest of ur reply. U clearly do not know the simple rules of geology and how technics work but then again ur Christian And don’t believe in science. Science is against the bible so in that case science cannot and will not prove the rest of ur bloody book. But the fact is u have given me no proof at all. Ur claims are delusional. Mountains take millions of yrs to rise. They do not rise in a short period of time. It is scientifically impossible. Science has proved over an over again that the flood was not global. Though like all myths there is some fact to them and evidence shows of a local flood. Just a normal flood that happens from time to time. Unlike the people of the time, they didnt travel far in short periods of time (unlike we who can travel the globe in less then 24 hrs) so if we have a flood we know its a local flood (example would be the 2011 Queensland floods here in Australia) although that example was almost state wide, it was far from a global biblical flood. It was a normal flood that happens here in the tropics on a regular basis. So that’s my point. Ur events are nothing more then local natural events. Nothing godlike about. U make the mistakes of claiming ur educated yet miss the simple facts of nature. Nature itself disproves ur theory. If ur so educated ur understand how but I am willing to explain how so if I have to. If not I will leave u with the truth, act on it or continue living a fantasy life. The decision is urs. The end result will be the same as mine. Ur be reborn and live a new life.
I didn’t noticed u replied to my last MSG. I didn’t get notification but anyhow. For you information I have studied the bible in depth and from my in depth studies I have have come to my conclusions about the bible. I have not got them from what I have been told. So it seems u do not know me at all. You make assumptions urself. It’s quite funny to see u desperately trying to convert me. Why would I convert to a false belief and a lie. I’ve even shown u proof of my studies. Especially in to the so called homosexual references on the bible. U always tell me to look at the context and meanings well I do. I looked at it with a non biased view and came to my view now. So don’t even think u know my past.
As I’ve once told u, I was a Christian, I believed the bible as u do, it was because of the misinterptations of the bible I thought homosexual urges were wrong, so I tried to change myself. It didnt work so I ignored them, I even had a girlfriend at that time. Due to my living a lie, I was depressed, not because I was homosexual but because I felt pressured to live a life that wasn’t me. So one day I spoke to my priest and I asked him for guidance and he told me, look for signs and trust in Gods signs. So I did. Unlike what u seem to think I had no outside influence, this was purely myself looking for the signs. I admit I looked from a biased view, a god fearing Christian biased view. It wasn’t until I was 35 did I realise I was looking in the wrong places, it wasn’t until then that I started looking at things with my own mind, my mind had opened up to the truth, I was living a lie, everything Christianity teaches was a lie. That is when I started studying the bible in depth, instead of taking it as I was told it is. I had no outside influence, no one drumming science in my head. I had ur view, I was exactly like u. So Erik u see don’t even start to think u know me. I am older and ultimately wiser then u. I have experienced things u cannot even comprehend. Keep ur mind closed if u wish but do not try and change people. It is not Ur place. U have no right to make false claims and accusations.
Never have I tried to convert you. God is the One who will do that. I am the messenger who has been transformed by the message and want to share it with others. If they want to accept, that is their choice. If I can talk you in to converting then someone else can talk you out of it. My job is to give a defense of the Gospel as is and let the Gospel do the work.
Do you have any formal training in language and literature? The reason that I ask is because without proper training, it is difficult for you to make an in depth analysis of the Scriptures. Are you familiar with the Laws of composition? Are you familiar with the inductive method of study? Do you know Koine Greek or the ancient Hebrew languages? These are all important tools in being able to understand the Bible properly, especially if you are going to make claims that the Bible is full of contradictions.
There is no such thing as a “former Christian“. I have written on this and believe that you should read it.
There is such a thing as a former Christian.
It’s called a previous mindless drone who wise up to all the religious horse manure. I was not born into a Christian family FYI.
περὶ ὧν Θισ[β]εῖς λόγους ἐποιήσαντο· περὶ τῶν καθ᾿αὑ[τ]οὺς πραγμάτων, οἵτινες ἐν τῇ φιλίᾳ τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ ἐνέμειναν, ὅπως αὐτοῖς δοθῶσιν [ο]ἷς τὰ καθ᾿ αὑτοὺς πράγματα ἐξηγήσωνται, περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος οὕτως ἔδοξεν· ὅπως Κόιντος Μαίνιος στρατηγὸς τῶν ἐκ τῆς συνκλήτου [π]έντε ἀποτάξῃ οἳ ἂν αὐτῷ ἐκ τῶν δημοσίων πρα[γμ]άτων καὶ τῆς ἰδίας πίστεως φαίνωνται.
A little sample for u. Just a random paragraph I have used in my studys of the language.
What about Hebrew? 🙂
If there was a god, he would be ashamed of all the hatred you’re spreading in his name… All your arguments are either made up or taken out of contexst from a very old book, edited over 10 times (that we know of) throughout history, by kings and priests who used Christianity for their own selfish purposes.. You are comparring people who love eachother to murderes and phedophiles? … (Edited for foul language), if we were all like you the world would be one big bowl of hatred …. See you in hell!
Ur wasting time. Erik is a small minded man who uses god and the bible to justify his own hatred. As u can see from my huge debate with him, he can’t see any further then his nose. I’ve resently been chatting with some very nice Christians who are nothing like Erik. They don’t try and force there hatred views at u. We have actually been comparing beliefs and life stories. It’s been nice. He respects my life as I respect his, something Erik never gives nor will get from me. He will call u a fool (which doing so is a sin according to him) and then tell u he has been saved from sin. I stopped msging him simply because he is to small minded to comprehend reality. He doesn’t worship god, he worships the bible. He always says the bible says this, the bible says that as if the bible is a real person. If he replies to u, good luck at getting him to see past his confirmation biased views ( a view that uses evidence to suit ones self, while ignoring all the rest of the evidence that doesn’t prove ones view. A view he accused me of several times, the fact is I look at all the evidence in both sides, not just part of the evidence that suits my view. Something he can’t understand and cant do). Anyway peace out and back to chatting with my real Christian friends, not hypocritical, small minded ones like Erik brewer, who in fact is not Christian at all.
Where did I call you a fool? Do you have any evidence? Or again, just many, many empty accusations (like you claim that I hate). Accusation without evidence is macro-evolution … oops, I mean useless.
I do not hate anyone. That is your opinion, yet without proof, as usual.
Where have I ever said that I do not respect you? I respect all people. That does not mean that I always agree with their lifestyle choices.
Divorcing God from His Word is impossible. If you were to read and study the Bible (although you claim to have done this) then you would know these elementary things. God actually stands on His Word and says that if His Word ceases to exist or is not fulfilled then He would cease to exist. Since He cannot cease to exist He cannot be divorced from His Word. That is a simple concept that you do not want to accept because it destroys your argument.
You should watch out the way you try to trash Erik, he has a God who avenges his people. Your whole rant is infantile and disgusting.
Disagreeing with someone’s lifestyle choice is not the same as hating that person. Many of the Bible translations that we have today are direct translations of the Bible texts in the original languages. Nothing has been changed (as the Dead Seas scrolls have proven time and time again). We have original copies of the text that date back to before the birth of Christ. The translations match the texts in the Dead Sea scrolls. Your claim is petty and proves that you have not done your homework when it comes to the Bible. You have just cut and pasted someone’s argument without checking out the facts.
Many pedophiles claim to love their victims too. That is not a good argument.
Your arguments need some deeper thought and consideration. Maybe then you can return and we can discuss rationally.
You may be headed there but you will not see me there 🙂
Here we go again. Ur again lying. U need to read back through all ur comments to me. Ur see that u called me a fool. The evidence is in ur blog comments. More then likely on this page. There’s plenty of evidence for evolution but for u to accept that would destroy ur arguement. God doesn’t exist, the bible is rubbish, the Dead Sea scrolls were written after the alleged birth of Christ. The bible was written 1500 yrs ago , 500 yrs after Christ.
Frankly I could care less if u believe me or not regarding my studies. I know what I’ve done, u do not. U are one delusional man in a far away country (thank god, no pun intended). And for the record u hate homosexuality so u hate homosexuals. End of story. Just admit it.
Please show some evidence instead of empty accusations. My 3 year old can make empty accusations. I am interested in proof.
Earlier you admitted that you did not know the exact date and now you claim to know that they were written after the birth of Christ. Please make up your mind. There you go again changing the goal posts to fit your argument. Proof means nothing to you. Facts mean nothing to you, just your own ideology.
Simply wanted to notify you that I found your blog on and though
I appreciated checking out your article, it looks like your blog acts up in a couple browsers.
If I use Firefox, it loads properly, but if I use Chrome, it comes up looking overlapped and off-kilter.
I simply wanted to give you with a quick alert, that’s all.
I appreciate the input. I am not sure why things are the way that they are. I work in Firefox so I assume that is why it loads better. If you have any suggestions for fixing the problem, I am all ears 🙂
Awesome article, Mr. Brewer! Keep up the great work, and the LORD bless you in your ministry in Eastern Europe!!!
Thank you.
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My brother in Christ,
With the best of intentions, I believe that you are truly innocently misinformed. I could write you all day long, but instead, I ask you (as a serious Pastor, teacher and missionary) to prayerfully review the available Biblical literature which shows that there are genuine alternate translations of the 7 Bible verses that APPEAR to condemn homosexuality. I am not talking about a new liberal theology, but a genuine alternate translation WITHIN the Scriptures just by looking at the linguistic and cultural context. I trust that as a trained Pastor, you have been exposed to the Hebrew and Greek language. Please go back and look into the Scriptures further in its original language AND cultural context. I have done years of study into these verses and invite you to read through my backed-up Biblical research on these verses that appear to condemn homosexuality: http://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/
Forgive my rudeness. please let me now introduce myself. I am a Christian and have known I was a lesbian since I was 5 years old. I never chose homosexuality and I didn’t activly reject God to “become” homosexual. I fought many years to try to become straight, but God never answered that prayer because it wasn’t something that needed to be changed. I have the light of the Holy Spirit within me and love Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior with all my heart! So please, watch what you say to me without truly and prayerfully looking into these Bible passages first.
I have found that many heterosexual Christians confuse their physical repulsion to homosexuality (because it is against their own natural affections they have towards the opposite sex) with a belief that they have a Spiritual conviction that homosexuality is wrong. They KNOW its wrong because it is something they would never desire to do! (Makes sense!) Throw in some mistranslations, verses out of context, and invalid statistics against gays and you’ve got a recipe for complete rejection of a group of potential followers. The fruits of this outward preeching of rejection leed many gays and lesbians to reject God because His followers reject them, so they confuse His followers rejection with God’s rejection. 😦 This grieves me on such a deep level. Would God want an entire group of potential followers to be rejected by His own people and promote them to run away from His loving arms as forgotten and damned? Consequently, their souls are lost to the world due to this rejection by well-meaning misinformed Christians and they never get a fair or equal chance at having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. On the other side, we have many struggling gay Christians that have been deceived into believing that they can “pray the gay away” and when it doesn’t happen, they commit suicide.
I would love to have a dialog with you so that you can go deeper into the Word and see that there are more to these verses than meets the modern eye. As I said before, I could go on and on, but I encourage you to stop, pray for desernment and then see the research I provided you. If you decide it’s not worth your time or you are too afraid to look at it, I would at least like to explain ONE of these verses to you which doesn’t require any basic knowledge of Hebrew or Greek:
Looking at Genesis 19 in the story of Sodom, many Christians see this as the first “proof” of God’s condemnation of homosexuality. A short summary by most Christians would be that all the men of Sodom tried to have sex with the 2 male visitors in Lot’s house and then God destroyed the city of Sodom due to their wicked homosexuality. First, these 2 visitors were not human males, but angels. Second, the men of Sodom attempted to have sex with them against their will. What is the definition of sex against someone’s will? Rape! When Lot refused to give them up, the men of Sodom said they “would do worse to him (Lot) than to them (the angels).” Is this a threat of torture or murder or more violent rape? We can see the violent intentions of the men of Sodom by a nearly identical story in Judges 19. A foreign male visitor in the land of Gibeah is surrounded by the residents of the city and they threaten rape. Instead, he gives over his female concubine. (Side note: If the residents of Sodom or Gibeah were all gay men, then why would they offer a female to have sex with?) They proceed to gang-rape her all night to the point of death, then cut her into 12 pieces! In Biblical times, many pagan (heterosexual) males would rape other men as a sign of power, punishment and/or payment (similar to modern-day prison rape.) It was a common practice to rape foreigners who passed through these inhospitable lands. Now knowing this, how can we use a verse that describes the attempted gang-rape of angels to condemn modern monogamous same-gender relationships?
The other verses in the Bible concerning homosexual sex have similar loss of context. Much is proven (by deep study of all the context of Scripture) to be connected to male shrine prostitutes (men who had sex with male prostitutes in idol worship rituals.) So in the same way, how can we use the condemnation of idol worship practice and prostitution to condemn all of homosexuality? If your brain goes to the 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:9-10 verses that say “homosexuals” will not inherit the kingdom of God, note that the word homosexuality was created in 1869 and placed into the Revised Standard Version of the Bible in 1946. This modern translation has been ADOPTED by the Greek word “arsenokoites” which means “man” [singular] “beds” [plural], i.e., a man in many beds – male prostitute. NOT “men” [plural] “bed” [singular] – 2 men in a bed.] Ironically, the Bible version that started it all recanted in their 1989 New Revised Standard Version and now translate arsenokoites as “male prostitutes.” Please review my article that I gave you for a full explanation on all of these verses in detail.
There is one main thing that I do fully agree with you in your article. Promiscuity is dangerous to society… But please note that NOT all gay individuals are promiscuous. Not even most! Why do you think so many have tried to obtain the right to have marriage lately? This shows you that there are many who want to be with one partner with whom they are committed, love and adore. I have been with my wife for close to 10 years and we have been so blessed by The Lord! We pray together every chance that we get, study the Word and love our church. Throughout my life I have been through much internal struggle between being a Christian and a lesbian and I have always sought to please and honor God. After many years of struggle, I have finally found peace knowing that God accepts me and loves me as He created me. My identity is in Christ and this is all that matters. “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” -Acts 10:15.
I believe that if you are in a God-centered monogamous same-gender relationship, than God accepts you. Being God-centered is the most important thing in any Christian marriage, gay or straight. I pray that God opens your heart to see the loving truth of His Word with a new level of depth by studying these verses without clinging to your biases and personal repulsion against homosexuality. May God bless you, your marriage and your ministry in new ways in Jesus name.
Your sister in Christ,
Moanti
P.S. I know this is already so long (thank you for reading), but I would really love to share with you my favorite Bible verse that God showed me at a time in which I was battling confusion of God’s rejection or acceptance of me. This verse saved my life and was the turning point of when I realized that God accepted me: “Let love be your only debt! If you love others, you have done all that the law demands. In the law there are many commandments such as ‘be faithful in marriage,’ ‘do not murder,’ ‘do not steal,’ ‘do not want what belongs to others.’ But all these are summed up in the commandment that says ‘love others as much as you love yourself.’ no one who loves others will harm them. So love is all that the law demands.” – Romans 13:8-12
I will respond with more later. I appreciate your time in reading my post. I have many other posts that help explain the context (cultural and Biblical) along with the meanings of original words.
As to love, I believe you need to study the meaning of the word love in the original. Love does not mean that you overlook a man’s sin and accept him as he is. Love means that you want the best for the recipient of your love. Overlooking a sin that is dangerous to a person’s physical life as well as to his eternal life is not love. In fact, it is the the opposite of love. Homosexuals can be set free, just like murderers, adulterers, thieves, liars etc. If I were not to share that then I would be hateful instead of loving.
I have seen all the methods of trying to manipulate the Scriptures to deceive people into believing that God accepts a certain form of homosexuality and not another. The Bible is very clear, God condemns the sin of homosexuality just like He condemns all sin. I pray that God will give you the desire to see the Truth as It is instead of what you want to see.
Thanks for the quick response Erik! It appears that perhaps you have already made up your mind and see any alternate way of looking at things as manipulating Scripture. What do you think about what I explained about Sodom? Do you see this as twisting? There still may be things that you haven’t read that are provided on my website. If you truly don’t take in all the explanations, it may be hard for you to see the perfect continuity that supports this. Are you familiar with the context of every single verse in the Old Testament using “shakab” and its application to the Leviticus verses? If not, I really encourage you to at least look at this part, as it is a huge “red flag” that translators may have over-simplified. I want you to know that I truly do not wish for any argument whatsoever. I just want everyone to be informed that there is an alternate view within Scripture itself.
For years I took these verses at face value, not knowing there was any other way to view them. Then I was given a book that explained a few of these translations. I was too afraid to believe it in fear that I was going against God. I would never take in a new concept so radically different from what I was brought up to believe without a serious in-depth study in search of the truth. Truth is what I seek and The Lord reveals more and more to me as the years go by. Our relationship is better than it ever was before when I feared that He rejected me and wouldn’t change me. Now I feel completely emersed in His love and His peace. I am not simply “seeing what I want to see,” but seeing what I have prayed to see (to show me the truth of His Word.) You may accept whatever you accept. Obviously these verses affect my life a lot more deeply than they do yours, seeing that I am a lesbian and you are straight.
As far as love, I completely agree with you, that to love is not to overlook sin, but to want the best. Love does not harm. Every sin in the Bible does harm to self or others in one way or another. Mutually loving another person in a life commitment does not harm. Being promiscuous (gay or straight) harms. Committing adultery (gay or straight) harms. Raping (gay or straight) harms. Molesting (gay or straight) harms. Being in a God-centered committed monogamous same-gender union does no harm in and of itself. The only possible harm caused are to the people (parents, family, etc.) who are saddened by believing it is wrong, which is not a fair tool of measurement to its inherent moral quality. The same could be said about parents of a heterosexual couple. If parents are hurt by their daughters’ choice in her husband, this does not deem their love and union as a sin.
When you say “homosexuals can be set free,” what is it that you mean? If you mean that they can become straight, perhaps you should go to Exodus International’s website and watch Alan Chamber’s opening statements at their last annual freedom conference. He admits (as ALL of us gays already knew) that not one person in their organization (the biggest national ex-gay organization in the world) has ever turned straight. Their ministry was based on what has now been personally admitted to be a lie (based on wishful thinking and omission of the truth by its leaders and members.) Exodus now renounces the use of “reparative” or “conversion” therapy (to turn gays to straights) as harmful and many times deadly (due to suicides.) Those “ex-gays” married to the opposite sex are not cured. They are bisexual (like Alan Chambers) or living a life of deception with a partner in which they will never fully be loved as a person should love their spouse. If you mean “homosexuals can be set free” by being celibate, their celibacy doesn’t make them ex-gay any more than a single heterosexual is an ex-straight (because it is about feeling love and affection for someone, not just sex.) Celibacy is a Spirtual gift given by the Holy Spirit. It is not something forced upon someone who has natural longings to love. If someone accepts their gay celibacy with joy, than this is a wonderful thing! But if they are pressured into it because of fear, this can be frightfully damaging to know that you are left to be alone with no possibility of experiencing any intimate connection with any other human being as long as you live.
Anyway Erik, thanks for reading what I had to say (again). I just wanted to connect with you to know these things. I don’t really expect you to change your mind, but I do ask that you don’t argue or try to refute my personal experience as a Christian. I feel loved and accepted by Jesus Christ as I am. I love Him deeply and fervently and don’t want anyone to be repelled from knowing my Savior! This is where I come from in writing these things to you.
I appreciate your sincerity. I will say that I am impressed by your attitude. Most pro homosexual readers are very rude and disrespectful (which is how homosexuals are presented in the Scriptures, see Genesis 19 as well as Judges 19). Romans chapter 1 also paints a very vivid picture of what it means to be a homosexual. Even with a nice attitude and in all sincerity, you reject the clear teachings (Truth) of God for an interpretation that is convenient to you.
People who have the Holy Spirit in them cannot live in perpetual sin. A person who does not have the Holy Spirit is a slave to sin. A person who receives the Holy Spirit also receives the power to say no to sin, being set free from his former slavery.
We know that homosexuality is wrong because God says so and history/science/medicine agree.
Homosexuals can become Christians and be set free from their slavery to the sin of homosexuality (degrading passion as the text says).
Preaching against sin is not the same as rejecting the person.
Many gays, in “tolerant” countries also commit suicide so claiming that the suicide rate is based on societal rejection does not really fly.
I do have a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew as well as training in interpreting literature according to the rules of composition.
Angels in the Bible are always presented as being male. It is very obvious that the homosexuals of Sodom thought that the angels were regular men. There is your first mistake. When looking at the context of a passage, you must also keep in mind the overall context of the Bible. You missed that and it tells me from the very beginning that either you have been deceived or are trying to deceive me.
God does not use the word homosexuality or homosexual. Instead, He describes the act so that people cannot “play” with words to manipulate the text (as you have tried to do). His description is “when a male lies with another male as a male lies with a female”. This is a description of sex between 2 males (rape or not).
Promiscuity among homosexuals is very high (even when allowed to marry).
You quote from Acts 10 is way out of context. Peter is talking about (literally unclean foods) but the spiritual implication is the Gentiles, they can now come to Christ and be part of the church (not homosexuals).
Genuine love cannot overlook a person’s destructive behavior.
Being set free is very simple. For a personal example, I was once addicted to pornography because when I was 10 my 19 year old brother brought home smut magazines. I found them. I was addicted from the time that I was 10 until I was 18. When I repented of my sins and was born again, I received the power to say no, over and over again. Am I still tempted? Yes. Do I give in to that temptation? No. Each time I say no. Before being born again, I wanted to say no but ended up doing exactly what I did not want to do. I was born again and learned that the same power that resurrected Christ no lies in me and I can use it over and over again to say no to sin and temptation. Since that time, I have been free. Homosexuals can have the same experience. I know many former immoral people who no longer live immoral lives. The same for drug addicts and alcoholics. This is the beauty of Christianity and no other religion can offer this.
Erik, you are very right about homosexuality. Yes there is bigotry based on justifiable fear towards people who practice homosexuality. Sure this hurts gay people. But a thousand times more pain comes from the lifestyle itself. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen guys in gay bars break down in tears. It’s a life of cheap thrills, booze and drugs, loneliness and illness. You can’t find a population of gay men where AIDS is not a big problem. More than half of gay people have seen a psychologist. Look in the back of any gay newspaper and along side the ads for male prostitutes you’ll find ads for treating depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc.
Homosexuality is a destructive force in the lives of otherwise good people.
(You are all free to repeat this sentence because I think it sums up what a Christian’s attitude should be on this subject.)
Well said.
The new acceptance of homosexuality has forced me to question my own stance against homosexuality. Even though I feel empathy towards those who say they are
born homosexual I cannot say it is a normal lifestyle based on Scripture, nature, and common sense.
My conclusion is that homosexuality can be caused by many factors. Traumatic
emotional experience, dysfunctional family problems, ie lack of love from a mother or father, etc. As Christians we are aware that possession by female or male spirits is possible.and this may explain why people are “born with it”.
Because the root cause of homosexuality is almost impossible to figure out I have
a hard time passing judgement on any homosexual. Of course, homosexuality can also be from a simple choice by the individual. Some people just crave a perverted
sexual experience.
All in all a very difficult issue for everyone. In today’s world one must be equipped with the power of God’s spirit to avoid destruction. This is not just for
homosexuals, but for us all.
Bob,
My conclusion after reading your post is that stupidity can be caused by many factors. But it seems to be a normal lifestyle lead by many who read Scripture. A “leap of faith” so to speak.
I believe stupidity can be caused by many factors: traumatic emotional experience, dysfunctional family problems, etc. As a moral person, I often question why so many unfortunates are “born with it,”
True, the root cause of stupidity is hard to figure out, so I have a hard time passing judgement on stupid people. Of course, blind stupidity can be a simple choice of an individual. Some people just can’t help themselves.
One must be equipped with an inner strength to deal with them.
I just happened to see this Blog last week when looking up Biblical quotes about homosexuality. After reading it, I watched a documentary here in the USA about Southern “Born-Again” Christians. As I was watching the show, I came to realize some interesting facts that I’ll relate here.
In answer to Erik’s original posting, I’d like to demonstrate why it’s Christianity, specifically Evangelical Christianity, that is a dangerous lifestyle choice. Instead of making up facts out of thin air as Erik does to create a bad impression of gay people, I’ll bring actual facts into my discussion:
I’ll use the United States as my example.This map shows states that have the highest attendance of church goers in the United States. As you might expect, it’s the Southern US states of Louisiana, Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee, West Virginia:
((( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Church_or_synagogue_attendance_by_state_GFDL.svg)))
Breaking it down a little more by denomination, you can see that the highest population of members of the Southern Baptist Convention (Baptist Evangelicals or “Born-Again Christians)” are in the those same Southern states of Louisiana, Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee, West Virginia. (((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Religions_of_the_US.PNG)))
Now if you look at the life expectancy of Americans state by state, you see that those exact same Southern states have the lowest life expectancy: (((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_states_by_life_expectancy.svg)))
Not only that, those exact same states have the highest rates of obesity and heart disease:
(((http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/obesity-statistics-in-the-united-states.aspx )))
(((http://statehealth.newamerica.net/node/84.)))
Those states have the highest rates of poverty in the country: (((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_states_by_poverty_rate.svg)))
Those states are the only states in the Union with no minimum wage laws:
(((http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm )))
Those states also have the highest divorce rates in the country:
(((http://www.statemaster.com/graph/lif_div_rat-lifestyle-divorce-rate)))
Now this all being said, you may ask why would the exact same U.S. states with the most God-fearing, Bible quoting, religious people also be the states with the sickest, poorest, and most divorced people in the country. Is it just coincidental? You might also ask why do states with the least religious populations be the healthiest and richest?
((( http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2009/01/map.jpg)))
Why is it that being a Christian, specifically Evangelical or Born Again Christian, is not only hazardous to your health, but decreases your life span by a full ten years?
You’d think that the most religious people in the country would be rewarded with good health, good jobs and happy families.
I think the answer to that lies in a quote by Karl Marx who stated that religion is the opiate of the masses. What did he mean by that and how does that apply here? The best answer to that is in a quote by Austin Cline in his article “Karl Marx on Religion”: “In the above quotation Marx is saying that religion’s purpose is to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them that this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life.”
To me, I’ve always seen quoting the Bible is an easy way to validate people’s fears, prejudices and hatred of groups that politicians and pastors wish to demonize. The same way that Erik does to demonize gay people. It’s not personal. “It’s not me but it’s the Bible that condemns gays, or blacks, or women, or Jews, or interracial marriages or illegal immigrants (fill in the blank.)” Pick a group throughout history, any group. It’s easy and even the most unintelligent people can understand Biblical quotes.
It’s easier and less expensive for politicians and pastors to feed the these undereducated people Bible quotes and “family values” platitudes than to provide access to good food, healthcare, hospitals, and schools.
Please show, with tangible evidence, that I have “made up” facts as you claim.
Also, church attendance and being a born again Christian are two different things. Does sitting in a garage make you a car? Your conclusions are flawed because your logic is flawed. You have disproved yourself from the very beginning 😉
Erik,
The numbers you state in your original post are your numbers, not mine. You need to show where you got those numbers from, just as I referenced where I got mine.
Just because you throw out numbers doesn’t make them real. I could state that 98% of born again Christians have an IQ below 80. Just because I say it doesn’t make it real.
As far as church attendance goes, I stated that people who identify themselves as being members of the Southern Baptist Convention or born again Christians live in those Southern states which just happen to be the same states with the highest church attendance. I didn’t state anything about church attendance and born again Christians. Although I suspect there is a strong correlation, I can’t state that as a fact since I can’t prove it.
Erik, even though I agree with everything you are saying, and I so appreciate your calm replies and in depth responses, and maybe I am just a pessimist, but I have found that once people make up their minds, they are closed, and nothing else that is said (proof after proof, evidence after evidence) can steer them away. The more people try to teach them and talk to them, the more on the offensive they go and literally become obsessed with counter attacks. Even if I was not a Christian, I know that homosexuality is wrong, because we need one of each to reproduce. And even if one should still believe in Darwin, even there in evolution two males/two females make no sense because it represents death, the end of life. So we can have these long back and forth debates, but if they are not listening because they have a satanic hedge around their hearts, then it just doesn’t seem very promising. I admire your patience and sincerity, only God knows how much aggression and foul words and attacks you had to endure because of it. The devil is trying to wear out the saints, I hope God renews your strength every morning. Just know that even with all of these attacks, there are plenty who are agreeing with you and seeing it the right way. God bless
I agree Heidi. God and his warriors will prevail.
How is Erik demonizing gays? what you say makes no sense……..and so is calling anybody who is NOT in the homosexual pride corner undereducated……….but I do agree with you on the religion thing…………even Jesus didn’t like religion, he kept on rebuking the “religious” people………it’s not about religion, it’s about a relationship with Jesus…..but since your heart is hardened, you can’t fathom this
Hi Erik,
Thanks for the reply. I completely respect your opinion on all these things because it is still clear you haven’t delved into the alternate translations enough to really refute them properly. I agree that someone should not live in perpetual sin as a Christian. But you must understand, brother, I am coming from the standpoint that homosexuality as a whole is NOT a sin in the Bible. Rather I believe the Bible speaks against such things as homosexual sex acts within idol worship (shrine/temple prostitution) and homosexual sex acts of rape. Of course to the modern English reading Christian, this seems preposterous without looking at the text clearly. That is why I humbly plead with you to look at http://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/ All of the study of these passages is outlined in full (when you include the links that expand on these translations.) I am telling you that there is an alternate translation WITHIN the scriptures, not something that I have changed to suit myself in “convenience.”
Praise God that He has delivered you from your porn addiction! That is a major blessing and may God have all the glory! But a porn addiction (or any addiction for that matter) is in no way comparable to being gay. It would be like comparing your porn addiction to the love, attraction, affection and relationship that you experience and have with your wife. It simply does not fit. All sin causes harm on yourself or others to a varied degree. A faithfully committed God-centered relationship does not cause harm (gay or straight.)
About the angels of Sodom… I am not deceived nor deceiving you about the angels. I am fully aware that they APPEARED as men, but this does not take away the fact that they ARE angels, so how do you say I have deceived you? It is ironic that you mention this, because this is what I am trying to explain to you. The Bible APPEARS to condemn homosexuality (like the angels APPEAR to be men), but when you look deeply into the Scriptures, it does NOT support that it condemns ALL of homosexuality (just as the angels are still angels even when they appeared as men.) But aside from that, you ignore the attempted gang rape in Genesis 19 AND Judges 19? So this is a “vivid description of homosexuals” because all homosexuals like to surround houses in the towns in which they live and gang rape people??? That is so unfair Erik. That would be like me reading “Though shalt not commit adultery” and then seeing an example in the Bible about adultery and conclude “GOD CONDEMNS ALL HETEROSEXUALS!” That is ridiculous because not all heterosexuals commit adultery just like not all homosexuals commit rape or prostitution. You can’t possibly connect the act of attempted gang rape to ALL gay people. If you do, this is completely unfair.
You quote Lev. 18:22, “when a male lies with another male as a male lies with a female.” If you are aware of Hebrew, you will know that you quote this incorrectly and THIS IS PLAYING WITH WORDS. It does not say male lies with “ANOTHER” male, nor does it say “AS A” male lies with a female. In the original language, it does not use comparative speech to compare a male with a female. Shakab is the word for “to lie with” in regards to “a male no shakab (lie with) male.” If you look at every single verse in the entire Bible with the word shakab, every sexual use of the word describes rape or coerced sex in some form. So although the Hebrew dictionary may just simply say shakab means “sex” (among other things such as sleep, laying down, etc.), if you look at ALL of its sexual uses, its context is never simple sex. So where does this leave us? Is Leviticus 18 and 20 the ONLY time it simply means sex? Or could it be possible that it means rape or the coerced sex of shrine prostitutes upon their idol worshipers? Here is a full list of every Bible verse using shakab in a sexual use: http://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/thou-shalt-not-lie-with-a-man-exploring-the-sexual-use-of-the-hebrew-word-shakab-to-lie-with-in-scripture/ Aside from that, if you look at the context of Leviticus 18, Leviticus 18:21 (right before 18:22) speaks about not giving seed to the idol Moleck. Leviticus 20 goes deeper into this. If you look at Leviticus 18 in parts based on theme (rather than verses), you can see clearly that Leviticus 18:22 is grouped together with sexual idol worship practices. Once again, my original website will explain this in full…
You said, “We know that homosexuality is wrong because God says so and history/science/medicine agree.” Of course saying that “God says so” can be argued to a point…. But saying that history/science/medicine AGRREE? This is totally and utterly inaccurate and can be easily disproved. But of course if you site from those who have a hateful anti-gay “agenda,” (such as the Family Research Council, anything from Focus on the Family, etc.) than your “facts” are misleading. Speaking of which, the above research that you cited has been found to be INVALID over a decade ago (at least.) Even from anti-gay websites that cite many flawed studies, anything current shows nowhere near these statistics that you listed above. Here is an example: “This data was obtained from the National AIDS Behavioral Survey. This analysis revealed that 24 percent of homosexual and bisexual men had no sexual partners in the preceding year, and 41 percent had only one partner. Only 35 percent reported two or more partners within the last 12 months.” So “fidelity being non-existent” is untrue because at least based on this study, the majority of gays were committed to one partner and the other 1/3 weren’t having any sex at all.
But citing any study can be inaccurate no matter what side you believe in if you have a basic knowledge of how statistical research works… Samples are not representative of the whole of any group no matter how hard you might try to make it representative. If I have not personally participated in the study, than it cannot truly represent me… Most of the gays and lesbians that I know in my life are in committed lifelong relationships. The others are single (not having sex with a bunch of people.) But this is only my own experience. The fact that ANYONE could have over 1,000 partners sounds mindblowingly ridiculous. Gays represent such a small percentage of the population so how on earth did they even find another 1,000 gay people to sleep with?!!!!
You said “Promiscuity among homosexuals is very high (even when allowed to marry).” Homosexuality does not promote promiscuity. What DOES promote promiscuity is not allowing people to marry. There is no modern society to date that has exclusively allowed gay marriage rights for an entire generation of people. So this cannot be validly stated. Once an entire generation of gay people can live within a society that allows and promotes equal marriage, than you can tell me whether or not gays are more promiscuous than straights. As it stands now, the majority of gays have been kicked to the curb away from church, Christians (and seemingly God) as well as the ability to marry (in most places.) So the mind state of “why not” becomes more of a sad reality. So it is this attitude that promotes promiscuity, not simply “being gay.”
You said “Many gays, in “tolerant” countries also commit suicide so claiming that the suicide rate is based on societal rejection does not really fly.” Okay, let me now tell you a personal story. I live in Southern California, which from the outside would now be considered a totally “gay friendly” society. Gay marriage is legal again, there is a larger population of gay people, etc… But I can tell you right off hand that what you see on the outside is not what is experienced on the inside. I grew up in an anti-gay household and nearly every gay person I know has experienced anti-gay rhetoric from their parents, churches, friends, etc. I am talking about a serious rejection of our internal humanity to the point that it makes one feel unworthy of living. This becomes magnified if one attempts to change their sexuality and fails time and time again to the point of giving up living. The “society” as a whole doesn’t matter. It is what you receive from those close to you and who you follow. You will never understand the internal battle that happens inside of a gay person who is desperately trying to live up to the standards of what is seen as Holy. Failing over and over again to turn heterosexual, thousands have committed suicide. Many more have rejected God because they feel that God rejected them. This is utterly destructive teaching and does not allow any acceptance or grace for the gay person. So either God accepts His gay children or He has condemned them to Hell without any chance of Salvation (which is contrary to the message that WHOSOEVER believes in Jesus will inherit eternal life.)
This is a timely letter, Erik. The leader of Exodus International, (the largest ex-gay organization I mentioned before) has CLOSED DOWN Exodus and admitted that he was wrong. He openly admitted that change from gay to straight is NOT possible, and reparative therapy caused many many many suicides. This is not coming from a man who suddenly decided to be with a man and saying all of this. He continues to be married to his wife and openly admits that for years he and all the leaders (and many followers) of the “ex-gay” community LIED out of wishful thinking. This leader has not changed from gay to straight and neither have any of the millions who have followed into this destruction. The leader is and was always bisexual, so it only APPREARED that he changed from liking exclusively men to now being with a woman (but still admits to having attractions to men.) 1 Corinthians 10:13 states, “No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.” If being gay is a sin, than why hasn’t God provided a way out (to become straight)? Why have so many gay Christians committed suicide, being pushed far beyond what they could bear because change never came?
I beg to differ that I have taken Acts 10 out of context. Yes, it speaks of food. But there was a deeper lesson within the 10th chapter of Acts which was taught. God does not show favoritism and anyone who follows Him is made clean. So one should not call someone unclean if God has made them Holy through Jesus Christ. Do you say that only straight people (Jew and Gentile) can receive Salvation?
You said “People who have the Holy Spirit in them cannot live in perpetual sin. A person who does not have the Holy Spirit is a slave to sin. A person who receives the Holy Spirit also receives the power to say no to sin, being set free from his former slavery.” I had asked in my previous letter that you not argue with my identity as a Christian. Although this quote you say is true, it walks on shaky ground when you are quoting it to me IF you are using it to question my Christianity. For you to believe that me being a lesbian is a perpetual sin is to say that I do not (or cannot) have the Holy Spirit within me (unless I turn straight?) Watch what you say, as you are treading on dangerous ground to question with whom the Holy Spirit resides… Although I believe you are oversimplified in your theology on the topic of homosexuality, I would not ever say that the Holy Spirit is not within you. I dare not to question that about anyone. You are not God and cannot see into my heart as God sees. I am not God and cannot see into your heart as God sees. I love God and Jesus is my Savior and I long to do His Will in everything that I do. If God plans to reject me for eternity, than I do not understand why He is so involved in my life. Is He using me just to discard me in the end? I need Him and love Him and believe He is always in control. I trust Him completely and know that everything works together for good by His Will for those who love Him. He is the ruler of my life and I could never imagine rejecting Him. So to even imply that He would reject me after all of this is just devastating for any gay person to hear. How do I become good enough?
None of us are good enough for God without the blood of Jesus to cover us from all of our transgressions. Everyone makes mistakes, and this is why we need a Savior. We are saved by grace, not by any righteous works of ourselves. One should not boast in their own righteous works. Everyone has the authority to say “no” to anything behavioral. But in the heart such things cannot be chosen or denied. The love that you have for your wife and children was not chosen. Would you deny it? Could you deny it? What if someone told you that you had to stop loving them in order to serve God. Could you do it? Even if you were separated from them for the rest of your life in isolation, would not your love in your heart for them still remain?
I am unsure if you believe in the false assumption that one can turn straight or if you believe it is only a sin to “act upon” sex with the same gender, but not a sin to have attractions. If it is the latter, than how can one be a sin and the other not when Jesus states that if you look at another woman in lust you have committed adultery with her in your heart? If the act is wrong, than wouldn’t the love and attraction be wrong too? So this means that if homosexuality is a sin and one cannot become straight, than even being attracted to the same gender is a sin. If this is the case, what gay person can be saved? My only answer is by the grace of Jesus Christ. I cannot believe that God created me to serve Him and then be thrown into hell. This cannot be, Erik. I love Him far too much.
We may never see eye to eye on this issue until the Day of Judgment. I only wrote you so that you could see that an alternate translation truly exists WITHIN the Scriptures that does not condemn homosexuality as a whole. This is not a new liberal theology. It is clear within the oldest of Scriptures only when you chose to remove your blinders and restrain your internal biases. I can tell that you come from a place of love, and I really want to thank you Erik. You have been kind to me. I also want to apologize on behalf of any gay person who has not been kind to you. (Without writing another full page, I must say that I do not believe that Romans 1 “paints a vivid picture” of homosexuals. I am NOTHING like the description in Romans 1, which proves that it is not speaking about me, but rather the God-hating idol worshipers of the time that performed same-sex prostitution rituals in idol worship in Rome.) Just know that the gay people that you have been previously exposed to are reacting out of pain from feeling personally attacked. I will continue to pray for you and your ministry. God bless you my brother in Christ. May goodness, love and mercy follow you all the days of your life.
Moanti,
As noble as your efforts are to try to change Erik views of scripture regarding the LGBT community, I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Erik uses the same tactics as the whole anti-gay industry which includes The Family Research Council, American Family Association, Concerned Women for America, National Organization for Marriage, and many others. Here is a complete list for all those hate groups as compiled by the Southern Poverty Law Center: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners
People such as Erik, Tony Perkins, Paul R. Diggs, Jr. MD, Gary Bauer, Maggie Gallagher, amongst others, have created an well-funded propaganda machine demonizing gay people. They use the Bible, old research studies, testimony from the now-discredited ex-gay movement, and whatever else they can get their hands on to spread falsehoods about gay people such as they’re pedophiles, drunks, Nazis, etc.
As you may know, many in this anti-gay industry have been exposed as homosexuals themselves. most notably the Rev. Ted Haggard, the disgraced former president of the National Evangelical Association, who was having an affair with a male prostitute, and John Paulk, the former leader of Focus on the Family’s Love Won Out conference and chairman of the board for Exodus International North America, who was spotted visiting a Washington, D.C. gay bar in September 2000. In 2013, he formally apologized for his involvement in promoting the ex-gay concept and for the harm his work had done. I suspect many in anti-gay movement are gay themselves and suffer from a bad case of internalized homophobia.
So your lengthy discussions fall, I think, on deaf ears. Erik is only interested in the Bible as far as it advances his prejudice and hatred of gay people. I just a means to an end. The same tactics were used by White Supremacists to demonize blacks in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s by quoting Biblical passages and quack racial research studies. Before that, the same tactics were used by male supremacists to try and block the women suffrage movement. It’s a well worn pattern.
Let Erik peddle his Biblical quotes people who are hungry for his brand of hatred. Unfortunately there are plenty of them.
Hatred? I don’t think Erik has a hatred for gays. He’s just doing what he thinks is right. I agree with Erik that homosexuality is dangerous for your health, both physically and spiritually.
Hi Gary,
Perhaps you are correct that I am “barking up the wrong tree.” But the thing is, if I let this misinformation continue without speeking up, it only allows for more generations of demonization and injustice. I am not just talking about people who speek against our gay brothers and sisters who act in what is seen as hatred without realizing it. I am speeking about the hatred that is conceived within gay people against the church and God because they feel cast out, and in retaliation, strike back in such a way that just makes us look worse to those who condemn us in the first place. Then they can say, “see, homosexuals are God haters,” without realizing that they were the cause to breed this hatred to begin with.
I do believe that Erik feels in his heart of hearts that he is acting in love without realizing the contradictory messages. He does not see it as hate whatsoever because he feels that gay people are wrong for being gay and he mistakingly believes that they can stop being gay with God’s help. So with this false assumption, he IS acting in love, not hate. His motivation behind it has no fault based upon his misguided beliefs about sexual orientation. But the twisted message makes others run from God, especially those who are the target. This is my biggest concern. We are to be “fishers of men” as Christians, not hunters.
I would hope as a growing Christian, Erik would strive to have a growing understanding of God’s Word. I would hope that he not be stuck in a simplistic view of feeling that he has all of the answers and everything is easy to understand without striving to search for God’s Truth on a deeper level. Our faith is not simply living in the hope of Heaven and thinking we have all the answers. It is a growing relationship filled with growing insights, if we are open to them. God is complex and His Word is complex. But what is simple is the love that God has for mankind and the hope that no one be cast out from His offered Salvation by the Grace of Jesus Christ. So I share this message, not just for Erik, but with anyone who God has ordained to read it. If these words “fall on deaf ears,” someone, somewhere, will hear it. If it brings them any closer to The Lord, than may God have all the glory!
-Moanti
Evangelical Christianity is dangerous to your health, Part II
I just read a very interesting article tonight of a report by the U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) about life expectancy in the U.S., specifically in the Southern U.S:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/18/us-life-expectancy-shorter-in-southern-states_n_3618146.html
The CDC study also showed that the state of Mississippi is the most unhealthy state in the U.S. with the highest rates of smoking, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and a range of other illnesses. It’s also the state with the lowest life expectancy. Not surprisingly, it’s also the state with the highest percentage of born again Christians, over 50% of the state is born again. I guess God just loves those born again people so much he just wants them in heaven real fast!
Please do not be deceived by evil people who want to teach you that Evangelical Christianity is ok and that there is nothing dangerous about it. It’s dangerous for individuals, society, and the world. Be a wise person and take a stand against it before it is too late, before more innocent people suffer needlessly. Fight against the evils by sharing the Truth of common sense morality and good will towards all men as Jesus preached. Take the hope of common sense to the people so that they can live longer, healthier, and happier lives.
Moanti.
Sorry it took so long for me to respond to your post. I was on vacation up in Alaska and had no Internet.
I agree with you that if you let this misinformation continue without speaking up, it only allows for more generations of demonization and injustice. But I think fighting fire with fire won’t get very far with Erik and the people who are easily influenced by him.
Bob posted above that he thinks that Erik does not hate gay people. I think that’s the root of the problem. Let me explain.
Erik stated in his original post:
“I do not wish death upon anyone, especially upon homosexuals, but death is the exact payment for the homosexual lifestyle (not brought upon by another person directly). Because I do not wish death upon anyone I am motivated by the love of God to share the truth, the Word of God about homosexuality and its dangers.”
If that’s not hatred, I don’t know what is. But Erik is careful not to state he hates gay people outright. He hides his hatred behind twisting and reinterpreting Biblical references and quotes. That’s the real danger. “Who me? I don’t hate gay people, I love gay people, but look at what the Bible says.” The entire anti-gay industry uses the same tactics. Like I explained before, it’s been done against many minority groups in the past. There’s nothing new here.
So, unlike you, I do not believe that Erik feels in his heart of hearts that he is acting in love. Unlike Bob, I do not believe he is doing what he feels is right. The real danger is people believing that he does. It validates his homophobia. It makes him seem like a good guy just trying to do the right thing, I would not be fooled into thinking that. If you do think that, it’s my opinion he’s won his case.
Erik’s Source
In Erik’s initial post on this blog, he cites as his source a paper by Paul R, Diggs, Jr, MD:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html
Dr. Diggs cites, in his paper, some research studies. The study that Erik uses to state his figures on homosexual promiscuity is a landmark study done by Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg, “Homosexualities: A study of Diversity Among Men and Women” published in 1978.
Let me tell you something about this study because I know about it first hand. Two of my good friends were in this study. It started in 1968 in San Francisco and recruited 1000 gay men. You might ask yourself where in 1968, even in San Francisco, could you possibly find 1000 gay men, considering how closeted most gay people were in the 60s and could not risk any possibility of being outed for fear of being fired. They didn’t have Facebook, or Twitter. They didn’t have Craig’s List. They didn’t have the Internet. They couldn’t post near the office water cooler. So the only place they could find 1000 gay men willing to talk with not much to lose was in 82 bars and bathhouses. Yep, bars and bathhouses.
Now, you can imagine if I did a study and recruited 1000 heterosexuals from 82 bars and sex clubs in New York City, you can imagine what I might find. Lots of sex partners, lots of booze and lots of STDs. I would then publish a report that states that the average American heterosexual has hundreds of sex partners and are a bunch of disease-ridden, divorced, promiscuous drunks, which of course is not true.
Let me be frank and state that no one was happy with the conclusions of this study. In the Palm Beach SunSentinel obituary for Alan Bell on March 26, 2002, the following was written:
“It was the most ambitious study of male homosexuality ever attempted,” said Martin B. Duberman, a history professor at the City University of New York who has written on gay issues. The resulting books, Homosexualities (1978) and Sexual Preference (1981), “refuted a large number of previous studies that gay men were social misfits,” Duberman said.
The study found that homosexuals were as well-adjusted and as satisfied in their relationships as heterosexuals. The researchers argued that there must be a biological basis for homosexual orientation, because they did not find that parental personalities or traumatic experiences played a role. That conclusion was greatly debated, with critics raising questions about methods.
“I expect the study to be condemned from both sides, by the radical gays for even looking into the subject and by the analysts who may say we’re trying to paint a glowing picture of homosexuality,” Mr. Bell said in 1981. “But we reported what people say, and it’s all very consistent.”
What Erik and his group never state about this study they love to quote is the researcher’s conclusion that there is a biological basis for homosexuality and that gays were just as normal and well-adjusted as everyone else in American society. Even this group of gay drunks and sex addicts.
Many other studies of gay behavior were done in the following years which recruited study members from bars and sex clubs.
What they don’t report is the good stuff. As an example, my partner and I have been together for over 27 years and have raised 3 boys who are all now happily married. The oldest is an officer in the US Navy, the middle son is an auto executive in Japan, and the youngest is a registered nurse with the Veteran’s Administration. We ave 7 grandchildren. We raised our boys in the suburbs of San Diego, chauffeuring the boys to baseball games, tennis matches, and summer jobs. We were as boring and normal as everyone else on our block. We were never in any research study.
I think it’s easy for Erik to cherry-pick the bad and ignore the good about gay people. It’s easy to stereotype a minority. But that’s what he’s all about. It has nothing to do with religion or the Bible. Erik just doesn’t like gay people. Pure and simple. The question is: why? Why does he hate gays so much? What deep psychological bent causes him to be the anti-gay bully in the school yard? What drives him to find any scrap of old research data, Biblical quote or twisted sense of religious conviction to spew his hatred? Well, that’s for another post.
In earlier posts I painted born again Christians as a bunch of poverty-stricken, undereducated rednecks, unhealthy, and unhappy with their miserable lives. Is that the picture of all born again Christians? Of course not. But it’s easy to paint that picture when I cherry-pick the data.
I like how you use one personal example (your own) to claim the standard for most to all homosexual relationships instead of looking at the data. One example does not negate the overwhelming amount of info on the dangers of the homosexual lifestyle.
Erik,
I don’t claim by any means to be the standard of all homosexual relationships. It’s just my story. We have many, many friends with similar stories. They just don’t become part of research studies.
But we are part of the US Census Bureau statistics. The latest 2010 survey of “Same-sex Couple Household Statistics” http://www.census.gov/hhes/samesex/, “Paper” page 5, has shown that same sex households has increased by 52% in the past 10 years to over 900,000 households. I think that demonstrates that gay couples are “partnering up and settling down” much as my partner and I did 30 years ago, in contrast to data taken almost 50 years ago from bars and bathhouses.
I know you’re reluctant, Erik, and I know you want to paint as bad a picture as you possibly can, but sooner or later you’ve got to stop using that old data. It’s just not accurate anymore. In fact, it never was accurate.
Gary
That is the direct result of teaching the gay lifestyle to kids in public schools as well as proclaiming the lifestyle via the mass media (movies, sitcoms, etc.)
Just imagine if the mainstream mass media promoted Christian values the way that homosexuality has been presented over the past 20 years. I imagine that there would be a great increase in the number of born again Christians.
Erik,
Take it from someone who’s been on the inside of this for decades: you won’t get the full truth from a person who is so caught up in homosexuality. You just won’t. I spent years defending it myself. You will get the Pollyanna version where bath houses never existed, where no man ever molested a boy and if he did he really was straight. That is why so much of this on here is just pointless. Asking a professional homosexual to be honest about this is like asking a wino to stop drinking. It’s just not likely to happen, and if it is likely to happen it’s not going to happen in a public debate.
But there is something here that is worth talking about and that is our freedom of speech and our freedom of religion, because both are under assault from the radical homosexual movement. Speaking out against homosexuality is labeled “hate,” and in many countries (and on many college campuses) they ban whatever they call “hate speech,” i.e., saying something that a professional homosexual disagrees with. Tolerance has become acceptance and that’s becoming domination.
More disturbing was the recent decision of the Supreme Court where justice Kennedy claimed that the only origin for DOMA was “hate” and therefor it was unconstitutional. He offered no proof. He says it is and that’s enough. It’s the power of words. If you label a disagreement as “hate” you can then silence any and all opposition.
So what’s next? Will efforts to stop voter fraud be labeled as “hate” and therefor declared unconstitutional? Will TV stations who broadcast Christian religious programs be banned from carrying “hate speech” and therefor lose their licenses? Will pointing out that the climate has been cooling for the last twenty years be labeled as “hatred” of the earth and therefor be banned? Al Gore said last week that if you deny his pet money making scheme that you’re like the people who deny the holocaust and we know there’s no place at the table for those kind. So what’s next?
What is most probable is that ministers in the military will (or are already really) be faced with either silence or dismissal, all on the grounds of “hate.” It appears that once political opposition is labeled as “hate” then the gloves are off and the first amendment does not apply.
I’m love architecture. It’s one of my hobbies. In the late 60s and 70s some of most God awful buildings were created. Take a look at Boston’s city hall of the FBI headquarters in DC. I look at these buildings and think, “You have to go to college to build something this bad.” And you do. Senseless theory upon senseless theory, hatred of the beautiful combined with a hatred of the past of our fathers lead to the destruction of buildings like the old Penn Station and the construction of buildings so ugly even Albert Speer would be afraid of them. Does any of this stop some intellectuals from loving them? Nope. Their ugly theories and warped ideas trump their eyes and their souls. And at best we’re left like the boy in the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes pointing out that the emperor is naked.
This is the world we’re living in. The evidence of our eyes and ears doesn’t matter. What matters are the corrupt theories that come from the elites. And so the unborn are not really human or alive. They’re just objects despite having a beating heart and a developing body just because some corrupt theory says so. And so when the bible says that homosexual acts are against God’s plan, we’re told that it really doesn’t say that because decadent some professor wrote a book that said so, despite the fact that for 2,000 years no one ever noticed this before. Apparently even the ancients who actually spoke koine Greek as their first language never noticed what some windbag professor does 2,000 years later. You do have to go to college to be that stupid.
And so men who molest little boys are really not homosexual, because some professor said so. And so a man can one day declare that he really is a she, despite having a penis, testicles, a beard, and a body made of billions of cells all with the XY chromosome. You have to go to college – a corrupt one – to learn to be this blind. And so a gay couple can adopt NINE boys and no one in the child welfare office says a thing because to do so would be “hate.” And when the predictable happens – and it did in a recent case in CT I believe – no one can say that maybe it’s not a good idea to let gay men adopt a series of boys, because after all they really weren’t gay or whatever. You have to go to college to learn to be this stupid.
My point? You’re not going to get anywhere talking about examples or evidence. The problem is with the philosophy. The problem is political. The problem is spiritual. Tossing around facts, no matter how true will not matter. Showing pictures of the Taj Mahal and Saint Sophia’s to the the architects of Boston’s city hall will not stop them from building a concrete block. If anything it’s just going to make them want to go to India to tear down the Taj Mahal or to go to Istanbul to replace St. Sophia’s with something out of Brave New World.
I have some ideas for a solution but I’ll way till later for that. But for now, just get used to hearing how wonderful the emperor looks in his new suit and expect to be attacked and insulted for saying the obvious. And for all of you who haven’t done so, get a pair. You’re going to need them.
I like the way you think Rucker…. You write down in words what I already know and
think.
History
I thought it might be interesting to learn a little more about the history of the anti-gay movement of which Erik is a part. How and why did it start? What was the motivation to target such a tiny minority, which, by most estimates, is no more than 1 to 3% of the general population? And what drives the anti-gay movement today?
If you have a few minutes, here is a short history of the anti-gay movement:
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/anti-gay/the-anti-gay-movement
If you don’t have the time, I’ll summarize it very quickly: MONEY.
You see, after the Stonewall riots of 1968 in New York City, Southern preachers and organizers realized that tons of money could be generated by virulently anti-gay rhetoric against this new “homosexual agenda.” Anti-gay rhetoric which had the power to fill football stadiums. Throughout the following years, the long process of developing propaganda demonizing gays grew into an industry which fueled the money flow, with books and pamphlets describing the horrors of homosexuality as a mental illness, the incredible promiscuity of the gay lifestyle, how gays, since they couldn’t reproduce, needed to recruit in high schools in order to replenish their ranks, and fear-mongering about the coming apocalypse if homosexuality becomes normal. Also during this time, in the early 80’s, right-wing direct-mail organizers realized that millions of dollars could be raised by this defamatory propaganda, claiming that homosexuals posed a very real threat to American families. Give now or God will destroy the world!! The more outrageous the claims, the faster the money would roll in. The anti-gay movement became big business.
And now, in the 21st Century, born again pastors and politicians have raked in millions of dollars in contributions from terrified church-goers, mostly born-again congregations in the Southern US, from a new world-wide money stream: The Internet.
This does not include the tens of millions of dollars that large organizations such as the Mormon Church, The Catholic Church, corporations and right-wing foundations pour into state-wide initiatives such as California’s Prop 8, North Carolina’s Amendment One and overseas initiatives such as Uganda’s Kill the Gays bill. Interestingly, Scott Lively, a major proponent of the Uganda bill, is directly responsible for the 2007 creation of the East European-based anti-gay group Watchmen on the Walls, and strongly advocated against a human rights bill in Erik’s country of Moldova in 2011. He’s also the author of the widely discredited Holocaust revisionist The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party (1995), Lively purports the Nazi regime was composed almost entirely of gay men whose “savagery” made the Holocaust possible.
Really? This is the junk that comes out of these people?
So I wondered: Why is Erik and other born again preachers so obsessed with gay sex? Why does this 1% of the population seem to bother them so much? As far as Erik is concerned, I doubt he has ever even met a gay person. I doubt that the people who agree with him on this blog have ever met a gay person.
I think the answer is clear. Anti-gay fear mongering scares up a lot of cash.
It’s sad, really, to think that Erik could be using his impressive communication skills at something more constructive.
You’re totally wrong.
I myself broke away from the homosexual lifestyle and from its political ideology because I was disgusted with the behavior that I saw in it. I spent well over thirty years in it.
You will never hear the truth about homosexuality from a professional homosexual like the above person. Never. For them, it’s a religion. Even for straight people, the acceptance and promotion of homosexuality is part of the new pagan, anti-Christian, totalitarian godless religion. For both straight and homosexual, the Christian Church makes them feel guilty about their own lives and so they have to silence the Church so they don’t feel so guilty.
The reality of homosexual life is much worse than the statistics portray. But the practitioners of it will do or say anything to cover up that reality. As someone who’s lived this lifestyle I can tell you that what these professional homosexuals tell you in public bares little relationship to what goes in real life.
Homosexuality is a destructive force in the lives of otherwise good people. Though an individual’s homosexuality is a matter of their own conscience (as Pope Francis just said), organized homosexuality has to be dealt with publicly.
Money has zero to do with. People are afraid of the social poison that is organized homosexuality.
Thank you for this insight. It is part of a religion, paganism and the followers will promote it because it gives them a purpose to live for and fight for as well as a reason to claim that they are persecuted. There is hope for all homosexuals, just like there is hope for all sinners. God has done it all and we have to accept His offer. That is why we have the Scriptures and the church, to share the good news with all.
Hi Rucker,
I am really curious as to your personal experience of what you call your past “homosexual lifestyle.” As you say, “The reality of homosexual life is much worse than the statistics portray.” What did you witness that is worse than the statistics that Erik provided? I am unsure of your personal experience, but I can say that everyone is different in their experience and trying to pinhole every gay person into your own experience is grossly misleading. If I were to do the same, than I would be (falsely) saying that all homosexuals are Christians in monogamous committed marriages. I know this is not the case for every single homosexual. I think pin-holing us is as insane as taking the experience of a heterosexual atheist rapist/serial killer and saying that “all heterosexuality is a dark secret underbelly of anti-God violence and criminal perversion.” You just can’t do that. If your experience was so dark, you were part of a lot more darkness than the “gayness” itself. You can’t blame it all on the gay aspect. If you saw promiscuity (and I’m assuming worse due to your statement), than the target of wrong is the promiscuity. The promiscuity is the sinful behavior, not the capacity for affection towards the same gender. If a straight person commits murder and surrounds themselves with other murderers, this does not mean that all heterosexual people are murderers. Please stop blaming the innate sexual orientation on all of your witness of bad behavior.
The true problem here is the “us verses them” mentality. Gary gives an extreme example of some who believe that Hitler and most nazi’s were “masculine gays,” therefore “homosexuality is the cause of the holocaust.” Although this is ridiculously false, if it were true that nazi’s were all gay, does this mean that homosexuality itself is responsible for the holocaust? Does ones capacity for love and attraction cause them to commit genocide???? If so, than the truth of the matter is that most nazi’s were probably straight (considering that heterosexuals are in the majority and there are historical accounts of gays being victims in the holocaust.) So with that fact, is HETEROsexuality the true cause of the holocaust????
You say that homosexuality is its own religion, and a pagan anti-gay one at that. Sadly there are a lot of public anti-God gays in the spotlight. This is because Christians (in the spotlight) have created the destructive us verses them mentality. “You can’t be gay and Christian, therefore gay people hate God.” This has brought more people AWAY from God than anything else I can think of. In my personal life, the vast majority of gays and lesbians I am surrounded by are devout church-going Christians who deeply love God despite their persecution by many mainstream Christians. I know we are in the minority here, so I won’t claim that this is ALL gays experience. I have witnessed many gay people reject God due to the same persecution. Homosexuality itself is not promiscuity, nor anti-God, nor any other sinful behavior. It’s a capacity of where someone’s love is directed. So creating this divide of us verses them is much more damaging to the souls of many than homosexuality itself. There are even many straight people who are disgusted by Christianity solely based on the anti-gay actions of Christians. If public Christianity were more loving in this regard, they may give Jesus a chance. As I have said before, we are called as Christians to be fishers or men, not hunters. Blaming homosexuality for all the ills of the world is only “killing” souls off, not bringing souls closer to the saving grace of Christ. What type of Spiritual fruit does this bear??? Good or bad? Is it good to push an entire group of potential Followers away from Jesus?
Homosexuality in the Bible is a whole other topic. I ask that you refer to my old comments (there are quite a few) and research the links provided which show how there is a true alternate translation within the Scriptures that is not anti-gay. If you have trouble finding this, let me know and I can post the link(s) again. I have done years of study into the topic and it is clear that the Bible is not condemning any form of monogamous gay partnerships, but instead condemning acts of homosexual gang rape and shrine prostitution. You are in my prayers and I look forward to your response if you would be willing to share. Just please make it clear that it is your own personal experience, rather than the experience of all. I can share with you my experience and can anticipate it being widely different. Thanks again.
Your sister in Christ,
Moanti
Rucker,
“The reality of homosexual life is much worse than the statistics portray.”
“Homosexuality is a destructive force in the lives of otherwise good people.”
“the Christian Church makes them feel guilty about their own lives…”
Really? Pretty strong statements.
I suspect you had some bad experiences during your 30 plus years in the “Gay lifestyle.” Care to share your experiences?
Gary
Moanti,
I don’t see a reason to continue with this. As I said above, you won’t hear the truth from a professional homosexual in public.
I’ll let 2,000 years of unbroken Christian experience speak for me instead. You on the other hand claim to more wise than Solomon, Moses, St. Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, St. Francis, St. Theresa, and Mother Theresa.
While I don’t admire your faith in the religion of homosexuality, I have to admit that your faith in it is very strong. St. Paul said that faith is the evidence of things unseen, and that certainly applies to the religion of homosexuality.
If people such as you can have faith in homosexuality even after the AIDS epidemic and the massive sexual abuse of teenage boys in the Church, Boy Scouts, schools (or in any place where homosexual men are around young boys), then nothing I say can change that. If someone can whitewash out homosexuality of all guilt in those situations, than nothing on here will change you.
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16)
Hello again Rucker,
Thank you for your response, but I feel as if we are having 2 different conversations. I am really confused. First, what is a “professional homosexual” in your opinion? An educated gay person with a career in politics or research? Or do you mean this in the same way that you call homosexuality a “religion?” Basically any gay person who isn’t self-loathing of their ability to love the same gender is then coined as a “professional homosexual?” So only self-loathing homosexuals are credible of their reported personal experiences? I truly am confused at your logic. Either way, I am disparaged that you are doing everything you can to try to discredit me without giving me any chance at all. As Jesus Christ as my witness, I am not lying about my own personal experience as a gay Christian. My only “religion” is that of the way of my Lord Jesus. I do not put faith in any other code of ethics aside from what I have read in Scripture. This is not to say what is written is wrong, but the take away of translation is certainly different from what you follow regarding these 6 passages in the Good Book. I see it as condemning homosexual sex acts of gang-rape and shrine prostitution. You see it as all gay people as a whole.
Calling homosexuality a religion doesn’t make any sense to me. If you could call it that, than heterosexuality must be a religion as well. You say that my faith in homosexuality as a religion is strong, and that “faith is the evidence of things unseen.” Are you saying that anything good that I speak of regarding gay people are things unseen? Because I do not see nor have faith in homosexuality as a religion, I do not speak about the things I have not seen, but the things that I have personally witnessed with my own eyes. I recognize and admit the good and the bad. It appears that your experience in what you witnessed of gay people was drastically different from mine and must have been awful by the things that you are saying. I am disheartened to read your words and I would really like to know what it is that you went through personally in your years you call “the homosexual lifestyle.” If you are wanting to make your point, it would behoove you explain, rather than keep silent and simply call my bluff. Your silence may make some people question your credibility as claiming to identify as gay at any point in your life. The fact that you have concluded that child molesters are gay sends up a big red flag. Looking back to your experience, you would really conclude that your attraction to the same gender is in this same category? Like what I said earlier about promiscuity being the separate wrong, child molestation is certainly separate from ones gay sexual orientation. This should be a given for anyone who is ever truly gay. If we go with your logic, than a grown man who molests little girls is a heterosexual, so therefore all heterosexuals should not be trusted when left alone with children of their opposite gender. I don’t like to make assumptions, but the only conclusion I can draw that makes logical sense to me is wondering if you were personally abused by the same sex as a child. I am not saying that I believe that you were, but if this is the case, my heart breaks for you and I can see how you would feel confused about this by comparing the two (gays and child molesters) as one. Please forgive me if I have offended you about this sensitive topic!!!! I am just trying to make sense of what you said. None the less, anyone who perpetrates sexual abuse upon a child (or adult) is vastly different from someone who longs for a mutual monogamous committed relationship with an adult of the same gender. So we mustn’t blur the lines between the two lest we cast blame on a lot of innocent people for the wrongs of others.
Lastly, you said to me, “You on the other hand claim to more wise than Solomon, Moses, St. Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, St. Francis, St. Theresa, and Mother Theresa.” Where on earth have I ever claimed to know it all and say I am more wise than these people? Quite the contrary, I am speaking delicately to use my OWN experience as personal evidence, and do NOT agree with expressing it as everyones experience. As far as the verses in the Bible on this topic, that is up for the individual to decide. I believe that many confuse their personal repulsion towards homosexuality with believing it is a Spiritual conviction. Either way, there IS an alternate view within the Scriptures themselves when you go back to its origins of Hebrew, Greek and cultural context. It cannot be argued that there is more than one view. I am not saying that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I am saying that there is more than one way to look at it and so both views are completely plausible. This is what I attest to as fact.
As far as how I live my life, my identity is in Christ and I long to please Him in everything that I do. I want to do His Will and bring others to the loving Grace of Jesus. I am absolutely certain that He loves me. I do not have “whitewashed guilt” as you say, but the loving assurance of Jesus Christ’s Salvation through His sacrifice under the New Covenant of His blood. I want nothing more than for Him to use me on this earth for the purpose of His Kingdom. I just happen to be gay.
-Moanti
We’re not having a conversation at all. I’ve said what I’ve said. You have your religion of homosexuality. I have mine.
Besides I know too much about homosexuality to believe anything you say about it in public. Years of talking about this have proved to me that no homosexual ever tells truth in the daylight. Stanley Kowalksi saw right through Blance DuBois. By day she was all poetry and finery. By night she swilled down all the booze and molested school kids. Things have not changed nor will they. Homosexuality is an illusion and a trap. Two thousand years of Church teaching is universal on this subject.
I’m not interested in your word games.
Wow… You know too much “about homosexuality” to believe a word I say? It sounds more like you are an expert in child molesters. What makes you so afraid of believing I am telling the truth? Perhaps God showed that verse you shared with me earlier for yourself. I pray your heart is healed from whatever you went through.
-Moanti
All,
I wrote the above to show you the way to deal with professional homosexuals. You can’t get into an honest debate with them because they will not be honest with you. The only thing you will hear is how sweet and lovely the homosexual experience is, when it is just the opposite. What you will hear are just word games.
If you bring up the bible, they will tell you that it was translated wrong, but only the
parts that get in their way.
We are dealing with people who refuse to see the link between homosexuality and AIDS. We’re dealing with people who blame the other guy when homosexual men sexually molest young boys. They will use the trappings and language of Christianity but only so far as they validate their own homosexuality.
And most of all I’m asking you all to have faith. Have faith that if God forbids certain things it is because they are bad for us. I assume that most of the readers here are straight and so they will have no real life experience with homosexuality. You may know some homosexuals, but you don’t know a thing about homosexuality because they will not tell you the truth. They will whitewash it for you. Don’t believe the media, don’t believe the atheistic professors and don’t believe the homosexual activists. Trust in God, his Church and saints and in the experience of the entire human race who since recorded times has seen homosexuality as dangerous.
Wow, this is really becoming bonkers.
Which other guy? If a gay man molests a young boy, then the gay man is at fault and should be punished. And if a hetero man molests a young girl, then the hetero man is at fault and should be punished. Because obviously it shows how dangerous and evil heterosexuality is. It should obviously be banned. And if not, then why not – this follows the exact same logic you use for wanting to ban gay men (not women?).
You’re trying to use scare tactics to make homosexuality look bad, when heterosexuality is just as bad by those same measures. In fact, heterosexuality is much, much worse – you can read almost every day in newspapers about men who molest and / or imprison young girls – often for years, as several terrible recent cases have shown. That’s way, way more than you ever read about homosexual molestations. And yet you only seem to care about TEH GAYZ. You say trust in god’s church but it’s that church that has been at the forefront of enabling child molesters the world over. For many years that we know of – and who knows how long before it was well known.
On the other hand, your crazy baseless ranting is probably starting to make people stop and think why you’re so overreacting and spouting such obviously daft ideas. Perhaps readers will actually start to think for themselves rather than blindly follow 2,000 years of hatred – that’s all that’s necessary.
Len,
Sorry, I meant that homosexuals deny that homosexuality had anything to do with the epidemic of male on male sexual abuse of minors, a patently absurd belief but one that is repeated as gospel truth. They deny that this male on male abuse was really homosexual in nature, saying that it’s pedophilia. Anyone who can deny that the male on male sexual abuse of minors is homosexual in nature cannot be reasoned with. That is my point. The same thing holds true for the AIDS epidemic, which the professional homosexuals maintain again has nothing to do with homosexuality. This is also just as absurd. I ask you, where exactly are the straight men who have caught AIDS from a woman? Name one. The CDC last reported that only 8% of new HIV infections come from men who claim they got it from a women. Certainly some of these men are lying so the actual figure is lower, though how much lower is impossible to tell. Clearly if HIV is spread easily, or at all, from women to men we’d see hundreds of thousands of straight men with HIV. But we don’t. AIDS is a disease that is spread from man to man through anal sex, and then from man to woman through vaginal sex. It’s also commonly spread through sharing IV needles. So if you take out homosexual anal sex and the sharing of IV needles, AIDS almost vanishes. If there were not so many men practicing anal sex on other men, AIDS would have no way of spreading other than the sharing of IV needles. Yes, it can be spread from man to woman through vaginal sex, but that man must first have been on the receiving end of male on male anal sex. Again, the AIDS epidemic is tied at the hip to homosexual behavior.
My point again that only people who love homosexuality more than reason and the health and safety of the community will deny that.
I also find it very odd that you blast the Church for the male on male sexual abuse committed by homosexual men but at the same time you’d put homosexual men in positions of trust and authority around teenage boys again. Well, it’s clear where your priorities are.
Homosexuality is a lie. It’s an illusion and it becomes a pagan god. I used to be a gay activist back from the late 70s through the early 90s. I defended homosexuality above all else, all the while seeing how messed up it all was. I know that you won’t get even one shred of truth in public from a professional homosexual. This is why a back and forth debate in an open forum like this is pointless. But boy do I hear a different story from other homosexuals in private.
My belief is that most homosexuals cannot be honest about the nature of homosexuality because homosexual behavior is a form of self medicating, and like many alcoholics they would spiral into an even worse place if they stopped.
Yes, immorality is wrong at all times. Heterosexual men can practice immorality if they move outside the boundaries set by God. On the other hand, if a heterosexual man practices his sexuality within the limits set by God, then, what he does is holy and honoring to God. Homosexual sex, in itself, is immorality (practicing sex outside of God’s limits). So, you cannot compare moral homosexuals with moral heterosexuals because one exists (moral heterosexuals) while the other is a myth (moral homosexuals). Practicing homosexuality automatically places one in the immoral column. So, you are trying to compare apples to oranges and it does not work. The medical proof of the dangers of homosexuality just help prove the point. There is a reason God calls homosexuality immorality.
Hi Rucker,
I just want to kindly ask one more time if you could please share some of your personal story. You keep saying that you can never believe what a “professional homosexual says in public.” You also say that being gay is “much worse than the statistics portray.” What is it that you personally witnessed in your 30 years in the “gay lifestyle” that was learned in private that makes you say these statements? Please share at least some personal example…. But once again, I must remind you that child molestation is entirely separate from ones sexual orientation as gay or straight. When a heterosexual adult male molests young girls, do we blame it on his heterosexuality? Or do we simply call him a child molester? The same is true for any adult who molests a same-gender child. If you really do your research, you will see many instances of heterosexual married men secretly molesting young boys. Many have never had any sexual attraction or contact with an adult male. They have adult sexual attraction to the opposite sex, yet seem to go after children of the same sex. This is a child abuse problem, not a gay problem! Child molestation has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. If it does, than all the opposite sex adult/child abuse cases should be blamed on heterosexuality.
There are millions of gays and lesbians who would NEVER sexually abuse a child or ever want to. Most of us just strive to spend our life with one adult partner just like the majority of upstanding heterosexuals… The only major difference between us (gay and straight) is the gender of our partner.
So please explain your personal experience that you witnessed with your own eyes and ears in private while in the “gay lifestyle.” I only ask this out of respect so that I can better understand your perspective. Thanks for your time Rucker.
-Moanti
Do you have any data for this claim or just what you believe?
When a male sexually abuses another male (whether the victim us young or old) then the predator is practicing homosexual sex. You can spin the act by calling it pedophilia but the fact is, a male has sex with another male, which is the definition of homosexuality.
Hey Erik,
Thanks for the response to my comment! This is of course, what I believe, because I have never once met any gay/lesbian child molester and I have never once entertained the idea of pedophila myself, as I find it sickeningly wrong and horrific… But for the sake of your comment, I decided to do a bit of research and was actually quite surprised by the results considering all of the ongoing assumptions about gay men being more prone to molest children. I know this comment is long, but I ask that you take the time to read all of it.
I promise to give you plenty of data, but first I must correct you on something. The definition of homosexuality is not a male having sex with another male (nor a female having sex with another female.) Sexual orientation itself goes much deeper than the sex act itself. Think back before you had sex. Did you have feelings of attraction towards the opposite sex? Did you have feelings of romantic affection with the opposite sex? Did you fall in love with the opposite sex? Did you long to spend your life with a member of the opposite sex? These are all things part of both the heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual orientation. I am sure long before you had sex, you had these feelings of romantic affection and they were not in your full control… When you met your wife, did you make a conscious decision to be attracted to her or fall in love with her? What led you to want to marry her and form a marital union with her? Was it just the need for sex? Or was it much more? Perhaps it was your companionship, affection, connection and love that drove you to ask for her hand in marriage… I can safely assume (or hope) that the latter was what led you to want to marry her, not just the desire for sex part. I can also safely assume that you would have identified as heterosexual long before your wedding night. So homosexuality is not just 2 members of the same gender having sex together. It is the love, affection and connection that one longs for with a member of the same gender. If we look at the whole package, the sex part of sexual orientation is very small, and may be non-existent compared to the innate feelings aspect. So although an adult male perpetrating on a boy is categorically considered “a homosexual sex act,” it certainly does not represent homosexuality nor gay people just like an opposite sex act of pedophilia does not represent heterosexuality or straight people.
Pedophilia is a form of sex motivated by control, violence, power and/or domination, wether the perpetrator and victim be male or female. This is not spin. It lacks the fundamental aspects of heterosexual and homosexual sexual orientation because the victim is discarded when they come of age. It is NOT motivated by love and need for monogamous life-long partnership. It is completely based upon the age of the person more than their gender. Likewise, a rapist may have heterosexual or homosexual sex with their victim, but similarly, the rapist is not interested in forming a lifelong union with their victim. These are both forms of abuse and the only fixation is the act of sex. Homosexuality is not all about sex just like heterosexuality is not all about sex. Sex may or may not be involved for a homosexual or heterosexual (Many live their lives in celibacy or singleness while still maintaining attractions and/or unrequited love.) Heterosexuality and homosexuality have the potential for life-long partnering and love, which the pedophile and rapist lack entirely.
So now going back to what I said. I believe that most people who have an innate gay sexual orientation do not have sex or want to have sex with children. The empirically validated research strongly SUPPORTS this.
RESEARCH DATA:
Study 1
The first study I found about sexual orientation and pedophilia is a peer reviewed study entitled “Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons” (A. Nicholas Groth Ph.D., H. Jean Birnbaum B.A.) This study researched the adult sexual orientation of the perpetrator (heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual) and the gender of their victims (male or female children.) Before I share the results, you really have to know that there are 2 types of identified pedophiles: “regressed” and “fixated.” “Regressed pedophiles” are ones with an established adult sexual orientation (they are attracted to adults) and for whatever reason, develop a sexual urge towards children. An example of a regressed pedophile would be a married man who enjoys sex with his wife, but also molests children. (My heterosexual friend was molested by her step-father who would be considered a regressed pedophile.) “Fixated pedophiles” are different in that they have absolutely no developed adult sexual orientation. They fixate on perpetrating on a certain age of child or adolescent and do not have any attractions to adults. An example of a fixated pedophile would be an adult male who has never felt attracted to other adults, and only is aroused by children. Also noted should be that studies in pedophilia show that many pedophiles do not have an absolute gender preference. They consistently self-report that it is the accessibility to children which makes them act, wether it be a male or female child.
Instead of summarizing, I will just quote this study so you can see for yourself:
“Female children were victimized nearly twice as often as male children. All regressed offenders, whether their victims were male or female children, were heterosexual in their adult orientation. There were no examples of regression to child victims among peer-oriented, homosexual males. The possibility emerges that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male.” (Groth, et. al., 1978).
Now just to be sure you understand these results, there were ZERO homosexual pedophiles, yet there were reported adult male/child male sex victims in more than 1/3 of the cases. Many of the perpetrators reported having an adult heterosexual orientation (married or partnered to the opposite sex), but had access to male children which they molested. There were no such homosexual males who had both attraction to adults and children. So this shows that there is a difference between sexual orientation and pedophilia, so homosexuality should not be blamed in sexual abuse cases where a perpetrator sexually abuses a member of the same gender. But this is only one study…
Study 2
I decided to keep researching… The highest number that I could find for actual innately gay adults perpetrating on children was an exhaustive study that showed that they represented less than 1% of pedophiles (Dr. Carole Jenny, Denver Children’s Hospital, 1996.) Interestingly, the victims in these remote cases were in their teens, so young children were not ever found in any study.
Study 3
Another Canadian study by Fruend in 1989 researched attraction to children with male heterosexual and homosexual adults who had never been convicted of any child sex crime. All of the participants were screened to ensure that they had an adult sexual orientation (i.e. They had attraction to adults, like the “regressed pedophile.”) They were shown pictures of nude and clothed children (ages 5 – 11), pubescents (ages 12 – 15) and mature adults paired with audio recordings and physically measured their arousal levels by changes in penis volume through blood flow. The researchers found that homosexual males did not respond sexually to male children any more than heterosexual males responded to female children, so there was no greater likelihood that gays were more likely to abuse children than straights.
Study 4
In an earlier study (Freund, Langevin, Cibiri, & Zajac, 1973), a nearly identical test was performed on straight and gay sex offenders who had offended exclusively on adults. Each were also screened to ensure an adult sexual orientation. They were shown erotic pictures in 4 categories: a) 5 – 8 year olds b) 8 – 11 year olds c) 12 – 15 year olds d) physically mature adults. A significant difference was found in that heterosexual males responded erotically to the 8 – 11 age group, whereas the homosexual males did not respond. All other results showed no significant difference, once again showing that homosexuals are not more likely to abuse children compared to heterosexuals. Conversely, it seemed that the heterosexual males in this study showed sexual arousal toward children, where homosexuals did not.
The only studies that make it appear that homosexuals molest children more than heterosexuals are outdated studies done by conservative groups which were all found to be invalid by their deceptive and unscientific methods. Primarily, they do not differentiate between adult sexual orientation and pedophilia. The participants may have exclusively molested children their whole lives and never had any adult interaction or attraction, but if they had even one victim between the same gender (even if the majority of their other victims were opposite in gender), they called them “homosexual.” Also, men who may have been married or had known sexual interaction and attraction with adult women, yet molested any young boy were all categorized as gay. This skews the numbers to place all homosexuals in the most negative light.
So when you properly define sexual orientation, it appears that heterosexuals with an adult orientation are actually a lot more dangerous to children (male or female) than gays with an adult sexual orientation. So please dear Erik, stop blaming gays for being a danger to children. If gays represent 1-3% of the population, than based on these studies, there is an estimate of .0001% – 0003% of gays that could potentially be child molesters (which again, is not counting all of the adult heterosexuals that molest the same gender, boys being of easier access than girls.) So if we break it all down, there are adults that are attracted exclusively to other adults (heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual) adults that are attracted to adults and children (heterosexual/bisexual/homosexual and regressed pedophile), and adults that are attracted to exclusively children (fixated pedophile with no adult sexual orientation.) Based on all studies, there are only isolated cases of gay males who are attracted to both adults and children, but many more cases of heterosexual males who are attracted to both adults and children (of either sex.) Lastly, there are many pedophiles whose only sexual impulse is directed towards children (of either sex.)
Here is a real life example to help you understand all of this. Think about the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church. You’re not hearing about these priests having sex with the adult males in their congregation. You don’t hear about these priests having sex with the monks or other male clergy (all adults.) Instead, you hear about these priests having sex with ones whom they have the most access; child and adolescent boys. The females are taught by the nuns, so females are not any easy target for child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. So these child molesting priests are not secretly gay males, but pedophiles with easier access to male children. There is a clear difference. Even the former Pope could recognize this difference: “I do not wish to talk about homosexuality, but about pedophilia, which is a different thing.” -Pope Benedict XVI.
So what do you find more dangerous to children? Two adults who want to have a consensual life-long partnership with each other or one adult who sexually molests children (girls or boys)? If you reject this notion that there is a true separation and continue to blur the lines, than it is only fair to blame heterosexuality for any man who molests a girl. Under this belief system, it would also be fair to say that it would be better for a girl to be molested by a man than a boy, because at least with a girl he would be practicing “straight sex.” With this logic, if a girl was molested by a man, he would be a pedophile. But if a man molested a boy, he would just be gay? If this isn’t comparing apples to oranges, I don’t know what is.
Lastly, sexual orientation is not a choice so no mater how much people may promote gay acceptance in the school system or media, not one straight child will suddenly choose to be gay just like you personally never consciously chose to be straight. If you disagree, than do you honestly believe that if you had been taught as a child that gay people exist, you would have gone on to be gay? I was never taught about gay people as a young child and never knew any gay adults. When I finally knew what a gay person was, everything I was taught was all negative. Why on earth would I (or anyone else) choose this?! The only reason you see more gay people now a days is because they feel safer “coming out of the closet,” when in the past they felt so afraid that many kept silent and took their secret to the grave. Homosexuality is not a choice nor a learned sexual addiction (like porn) nor perpetration on a victim nor child abuse. It is love, equally comparable to a heterosexual who forms a life union with their partner. Wether you agree with homosexuality or not, you should at least not condemn gay people for something they are not responsible for. If you can see the difference between heterosexuality and pedophilia, than you should hopefully be able to see the difference between a homosexuality and pedophilia.
Thanks for reading this very long comment! I spent a lot of time researching for you and I appreciate your time as always. May God enrich your knowledge on this topic so that you may be better able to help potential followers of Christ.
-Moanti
Moanti, that was brilliant.
Thanks Len! I only hope Erik, Rucker and other such readers can decipher the clear difference given the facts. For them to admit this is true would NOT be giving in to believing that homosexuality is okay… It would just put us more on a fair playing field by not blaming gays for a multitude of other wrong things on top of what they already believe gays do wrong.
-Moanti
Rucker,
Wow, you just get crazier and crazier. If it wasn’t so sad it would be fun to watch.
The “epidemic of male on male sexual abuse of minors” (as you put it) is paedophilia. Paedophilia is not limited to adult male on pre-adult male behaviour but that’s all you’re complaining about. Paedophilia may involve homosexual activity and it may involve heterosexual activity – but it’s adult to pre-adult. Either way, it’s evil. Why don’t you campaign so fervently against adult male to pre-adult female activity? Or adult female to pre-adult male or pre-adult female? Adult to adult may also involve heterosexual or homosexual activity and that’s fine as long as all parties freely consent.
I guess that when you read what I wrote you didn’t have your comprehension hat on. I did not say that I’d put homosexual men in positions of trust and authority around teenage boys. I didn’t say it but I’d have no qualms about doing it. I would have a problem putting a paedophile in such a position – whether they would want to prey on pre-adult boys or pre-adult girls. At least I’m consistent.
You’ll probably scream back at me that homosexual men are paedophiles – everyone knows that’s rubbish but keep up the crazy rants. Erik has tried a few times to “prove” that because one paedophile ever exhibited homosexual tendencies, it means that all homosexuals are paedophiles. But you (as he) seem to not understand that it also works the other way round and that heterosexuality is therefore just as bad. Or rather, it doesn’t work, because your whole argument is invalid.
You keep mentioning professional homosexuals – would you please explain what they are.
You also keep referring to the years you spent in the gay community and how awful it was, yet – despite being asked multiple times by one of the other posters – you won’t share any of your story. In my (admittedly limited) experience that’s usually due to one of two reasons: 1) You’re a victim yourself and it’s a very painful memory. But that would probably mean you’d not bring it up so often. 2) You’re making it up. That really seems more likely here, given your attempt for special pleading / appeal from authority (as a former gay person) but unwillingness to back it up. You’re parroting the stereotypes and hoping people will knee-jerk react to it and agree with you, without actually thinking about it. I’m no psychologist but that’s how I read this.
As I mentioned before, the only thing you’re probably achieving is to make people think more carefully about things – thinking for themselves but not in the way you expect. That’s always a good thing.
Erik,
You said:
“You can spin the act by calling it pedophilia but the fact is, a male has sex with another male, which is the definition of homosexuality.”
With all respect, I don’t think you see what we’re dealing with. I suspect that you’re afraid to look honestly with what we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with a level of denial and delusion that is staggering, and which I think you fundamentally down play.
Yes, they can see an epidemic of male on male sexual abuse and deny that homosexuality is involved. Yes, they can read the Bible as a pro-homosexuality book. They can do a lot more.
Bradley Manning now says he’s a woman, and the media is falling all over themselves calling him “her” and calling him by his new name, which to my memory is Carol Channing or something like that. Take any of these so-called transsexuals. They’re dudes. They have a penis. They have testicles. They have the XY chromosome. There is zero evidence of them being anything other than male, except for what comes out of their mouths. They’re delusional. They’re as delusional as the guy who claims to be Napoleon. And yet millions of people now believe the delusions of these people. Is this mass psychosis? I don’t know but it’s frightening.
I use this as only one example of many. You could use the AIDS epidemic, sexual abuse of children by homosexuals, the numbers of homosexual who experience mental health problems, drug use, alcoholism, etc. They can look at all of this and either deny it, or blame it on the other guy.
You’re seriously underestimating the problem if you think that objective truth will change their minds. This is why I don’t get into back and forth debates on here.
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”
Do you see what I’m saying? And if so, why do you go along with them by engaging in all of this?
I agree Rucker. Debatng witha homosexual is a lesson in futlility, unless you have the power to cast out demons.
Bob,
That isn’t what I said.
Sin comes from the world, the flesh and the devil. Demonic possession is real but I’d need a lot of proof of it before I’d recommend an exorcism. Our sins usually start closer to home, namely from our own fallen nature and from the influence of others on us.
Homosexual behavior is not the only sin out there. I think that we can offend God by singling out the sins of others while ignoring our own. It’s easy to avoid the sins that don’t particularly tempt us. It’s worst yet to demonize others for those sins.
What I’ve said is that these public forums are not a good place for certain kinds of interactions. In private with other guys who have same-sex attraction I hear a very different story than what I hear on a site like this.
I think that straight people are the cause of all of this homosexual mess. Homosexuality flourishes when the family and morality breaks down. The acceptance of artificial birth control changed how sex is seen and practiced. Once sex becomes disconnected from creating life, then it’s just a matter of time before homosexuality is accepted as normal. Divorce and single parenting are the biggest factors in creating a homosexual inclination outside of childhood sexual abuse. Homosexuality is a symptom, a warning sign that the human family is hurting.
So I wouldn’t look to “cast out demons” first. I’d pray first and I’d pray just as much for straight people because that’s where the problem starts and ends.
I agree totally. We just found out that a relative ( a teenage girl) likes girls instead of boys. She has lived with my aunt ( who brought her up) because her father wanted nothing to do with her. The mother is pretty much dysfunctional. I see time after time how bad environments and emotional stress lead to homosexual behavior.
Not saying that’s the only reason, but I see it all the time.
You might want to mention that to Erik.
(Erik, please don’t say you hate the sin but love the sinner – we can all see through that little lie.)
Your words
If this is the case then why are the Kinsey, falsely inflated numbers still used today? This is the problem, the entire homosexual movement is based on lies and misinformation.
I am not anti-homosexual. I am anti-homosexuality because it is a sin. I am anti-sin just as God is. I am actually fighting for the sinner by fighting against his sin. Plus, I am a sinner who has been set free and I want to share the good news with my fellow man.
Hi there Erik,
How have you been? Have you had a chance to review any of the verses in my website? I just wanted to see what you thought.
I don’t think that the Kinsey scale is the problem. I think it is ALL quantitative research on the topic of homosexuality. People are biased to report the statistics one way or another based upon their acceptance or rejection of the topic because it is such a hot button issue. You are going to find a lot more extreme variety in this topic (homosexuality) in statistics than if you were to research something without any emotional human bias such as a study on the mutations and genetic defects of alligators in the Everglades for example. There are such extremes because we as gay people represent extremes and everything in between. It’s as silly as doing a study on a random group of heterosexuals and claiming it to represent all heterosexuals. Instead, it’s best to look at things in a qualitative way rather than quantitative. People are different and variety is found amongst all, both gay and straight.
But as far as Kinsey goes, I think the reason his stats seem to portray a higher estimate of homosexuality is because of the scaling values he uses ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale#Table_of_the_scale ). With this in mind, it only really gives 1 out of the 6 values of being 100% exclusively heterosexual. Obviously this would inflate statistics to make it look like there were more gay people. Although this is the case, it may still be true that there is a gray scale of attraction rather than black and white. If you talk to bisexual people, some prefer the opposite gender, others the same, and some seem to be attracted to the opposite and same gender more equally. Then there are many out there that would identify as heterosexual, but have experienced an attraction or two to the same gender in their lifetime. So things really do seem to be on a scale, but to pinhole those who have a lower to medium score as being homosexual is just not accurate.
The same inaccuracies can be applied to your statistics in your article about gay promiscuity.,. The pool of participants were in the 1960’s and came exclusively from gays in bath houses (where sex is the whole purpose) and gay bars (also a common meeting place for sex partners in those days.) If I can remember correctly, gays weren’t the only ones giving away “free love” during this time of the 1960’s… Do you recall? My point is that these gay people in this study do not and cannot represent all gay people. It’s the same as doing a study on crime rates and using only prisoners as a sample population and applying it to the general population.
Back to numbers, I guess we really couldn’t ever know exactly how many people in the world were homosexuals, even if we surveyed everyone. People keep a lot secret even when done anonymously for fear of being found out, even if its an irrational fear. Many people are also afraid to put their true sexual orientation on the census. So these uncounted numbers are unknown…
Well I must go for now. I always highly enjoy speaking with you and seeing the comments left on your blog. I hope you and your beautiful family are well and I continue to pray for you and your ministry!
Your sister in Christ,
Moanti
Erik,
Your comment: “the entire homosexual movement is based on lies and misinformation.”
I think that’s a bit harsh.
The original 1948 Kinsey study reported that 37% of men had a same-sex experience after adolescence, but I don’t think that the vast majority of those men would self-identify as gay.
The 1 to 3% numbers I stated come from several very recent sources.
The Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, a sexual orientation law think tank, released a study in April 2011: Williams Institute
It found, based on its research, that 1.7 percent of American adults identify as gay or lesbian, while another 1.8 percent identify as bisexual.
An October 2012 Gallup Survey of over 120,000 U.S. adults reported similar results, that 3.4% identified as gay or bisexual: Gallup Survey
So I think my figure of 1 to 3% is based on very recent surveys by very reputable sources and is fairly accurate.
What I found most interesting in your reply is your comment: “I am a sinner who has been set free…”
What exactly do you mean by that?
Gary
All people are born sinners. It manifests itself in different ways. Some are more rebellious. Others turn to immorality. Still others to pride. I was born a sinner like everyone else. I know what it is like to be enslaved by various sins. I tried alcohol and was trapped in its grip. I was introduced to porn at an early age and became dependent upon it. I swore and could not stop. I lied, cheated, and stole and the only thing that I was worried about was not getting caught. I learned how to manipulate people for my own advantages (I was told on more than one occasion that I should become a lawyer). In the summer of 1999, I had an encounter with Jesus Christ, an encounter that changed my life. I met some people who studied the Bible and lived It out. I learned how to study the Scriptures and live Them out. I discovered that I have the power to say no to sin and temptation because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I began to apply this and discovered that I had been set free from the sins that entangled me. I began to say NO over and over again and found that I could overcome sin and temptation (something that everyone would love to have). It is possible when you become a follower of Jesus Christ. I want to share that Good News with my fellow sinners who do not know of this way out. The chains have been broken and you can walk out of the trap yet most of the people around me do not know this. I lived for 18 years without knowing this. I have lived the past 12 years with this info and it is an amazing life. I desire that all will at least have a chance to accept this info and that is why I teach and preach. I have nothing to gain here on this earth from doing what I do other than the companionship of others who have been set free as I have been set free.
Oops, the links didn’t come through
Willaims: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/
Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/special-report-adults-identify-lgbt.aspx
Erik,
When you state that “All people are born sinners” you’re starting to concern me.
I used to hear that when I was a kid in Catholic school. Sister Mary Margaret would scream: “You’re all born sinners so you better repent!!!”
I never bought into the Catholic guilt trip that we are all born sinners. I think that’s truly a form of brainwashing that borders on child abuse. If you buy into that then I think you are damaged for life. And you live with that guilt. It festers over time, internalizes into shame, and slowly manifests itself by turning that internal conflict outward into hostility directed at groups or people in order to placate that conflict.
If you are born gay, you can imagine the pathology is even worse, the guilt compounded. There is no one more anti-gay than someone who is born gay, has been conditioned over time to have guilt and shame about it, and tries to placate that guilt by directing that conflict outwards by being verbally hostile toward gay people. These people often find comfort in organizations that have institutionalized homophobia such as religious or social organizations or states and countries that have or are trying to institutionalize homophobia.
There’s not much more I can say about this. It’s not easy to deal with people who are so conflicted.
Gary
It is easy to prove that we are all born sinners. Just answer the following questions honestly.
1) Do you have to teach little children to be selfish or to share?
2) Do you have to teach them to lie or to tell the truth?
3) Do you have to teach them to steal or, instead, do you have to teach them not to steal?
4) Do you have to teach children to hurt others with words and actions or not to hurt others with words and actions?
5) Do you have to teach babies to be manipulative?
It is clear to anyone who will be honest that all of us are born broken sinners. We all need to be repaired. That sin nature will manifest itself differently as we grow but there are some common manifestations that will all possess.
We are all born with a nature that will cause us to be sexual deviants. Some will lust after the opposite sex while other will lust after the same sex. Lust is lust and is a deviation from God’s intended path. An immoral heterosexual and homosexual are equally sinful in God’s eyes and both can be forgiven and transformed. It is up to the person to decide whether or not he wants this transformation or not. The sad part is, most homosexuals do not want to allow other homosexuals the choice or accepting this transformation or not. They simply do not want others even to have the chance of hearing about it. I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I just want to give the people the chance to choose, unlike you, who wants to keep others ignorant of their choice in the matter.
Wow, Erik, you have a very dismal view of people.
As you know and I know, kids are born selfish. It’s me, me, me!!!
But it’s not about sin, it’s about human nature. We teach our kids right from wrong, truth from lies. We teach then how to be less selfish over time and how to relate to others in a constructive and giving way. We teach them to be moral human beings and hopefully they grow up to be successful and loving parents. And now I have the pleasure of seeing our kids teaching their kids the same values we taught them.
I’m sorry, I just don’t buy into the “everyone’s born a broken sinner” mentality.
You say we’re all born with a nature to be sexual deviants. Really?? Do you really believe that? Do you look at your kids and say, they’re going to be deviants unless I teach them otherwise? That’s shocking.
I don’t pray, but in your case I think I’ll make an exception and pray for you and your kids.
As far as the ex-gay movement is concerned, I never said I wanted to keep people ignorant of the choices they have. On the contrary, I want gay people to be exposed to what a fraud that whole movement is and how many of the former leaders of that movement have rejected that therapy and apologized for the damage it has brought to gay kids.
Of our three boys, one is gay, and I would never, ever have subjected him to that abuse.
What I do find interesting is that you seem to imply that kids are born gay and it’s not a choice. I think that’s progress!
Gary
I just wanted to bring something up here that I find interesting. Many here are falsely blaming homosexuals for child abuse and AIDS and using it as some type of “natural proof” that homosexuality is inherently wrong and dangerous. Considering that homosexuality is an attraction to the same gender, what about lesbians? If we were to apply the same statistics as “natural proof” to lesbians, we would find the exact opposite. Take for instance the statistics on AIDS. The CDC reports that there are ZERO reported cases of HIV/AIDS among lesbians who have sex with other lesbians. Although they say that the possibility of transmission exists, they have no reported cases on record. Secondly, 97% of child sexual predators are male, and the remaining 3% are overwhelmingly heterosexual females or fixated female pedophiles who only have attraction to children (usually adolescent/teen males.) So the least likely child sexual predator would be the female lesbian. Furthermore, a new study by U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study, (the longest-running study ever conducted on American lesbian families, now in its 24th year), concluded that ZERO percent of children with lesbian parents were physically or sexually abused by them or their caregivers. “The paper found that none of the 78 NLLFS adolescents reports having ever been physically or sexually abused by a parent or other caregiver. This contrasts with 26 percent of American adolescents who report parent or caregiver physical abuse and 8.3 percent who report sexual abuse [among heterosexual families.]”
So if we were to use these statistics as “natural proof,” than it would be shown that lesbianism, lesbians and lesbian families are healthier and more upstanding than heterosexuality, heterosexuals and heterosexual families. Of course I wouldn’t go as far to say this is the case, as I don’t believe I am “better” than all of heterosexuals, but I am using this information to prove a point that you shouldn’t use these things as “natural proof” because it just doesn’t add up.
On a side note with this same logic, many claim that childhood sexual abuse is the cause of gayness or lesbianism. There is something that people with this view do not take into consideration. Many believe that gay males were sexually molested by males in childhood, hence they became gay because they are attracted to men. Considering that 97% of pedophiles are males, yet girls are twice as likely to be molested, these same people theorize that lesbians were also sexually molested by males, hence they become lesbians because they are afraid of men. Why would the little boys molested by men want to be with other men as adults, but the little girls molested by men go on to be afraid of males and want females instead? The logic doesn’t make a bit of sense. “You’re a gay man because a man molested you as a child” and “you’re a lesbian woman because a man molested you as a child.” Do you see the discrepancy? In my own personal life as a lesbian, I was never molested by any man or woman as a child. Furthermore, I know of no other lesbians that were molested. The only friend that I know that was molested by a male as a child went on to be heterosexual. Why isn’t she a lesbian? On another personal note, my Christian parents are still together and I never had any trauma in childhood EXCEPT for my mom freaking out when she found out I was a lesbian and sending me to reparative therapy which made me want to kill myself. Also, my wife (of nearly 10 years) grew up in a wonderful Christian household and her parents are still together and she never had any trauma in childhood. So why are we lesbians if these theories are true?
I know I am jumping around here a bit, but I have one more thing to note. The study that Erik is referring to that say that gays and lesbians are more likely to die at a younger age are imperially invalidated. This comes from the discredited research of Paul Cameron and his Family Research Institute in the 1994 paper, “The Lifespan of Homosexuals.” The methodology of this study was flawed by the fact that the “sample” of dead gays came directly from an obituary in a gay magazine. It was not remotely statistically representative of the gay and lesbian population. Just because one lesbian in the obits died in a car accident at 40 doesn’t mean that lesbians die on average at age 40. It is all flawed research and if one is concerned with truth, than one should not be quoting untruths.
-Moanti
All you bible thumpers are clearly confused and latent homosexuals in hiding. Let the “Christianity” thing go and just admit you have homosexual thought yourselves. God does not hate anyone and accepts all that want to be accepted. If you’d rather be with the devil, you can make that choice. I’ve never heard more hypocritical people in my life. And your “research?” You can just make stuff up like “lesbians live 20 years less? Are you kidding? Not only is this not true it’s absurd and has no basis to actual reality. Why don’t you go to the closest er and start proclaiming these “facts” so they can see your suffering from delusions and mental illness, and they”ll lock you up. Get a life. Let others live the way they want. How about all these men who live the married life but visit hookers on their lunch break? I don’t hear you badgering them? No, it’s your tunnel vision and your obsession with homosexuals which most of you are yourselves and use the bible and Christianity to hide behind. Nobody else’s business in the bedroom is your business. Not the hetero couple across the st. Nor the homosexual couple down the street. Your all self serving to whatever it is you hate, and then use the bible to hide behind because your cowards. I put you people in the same category as the westboro baptist church-CRAZY. Your religious nuts. Conservatism is itself a mild form of insanity and that is based on science. God will judge you and me. You have no business judging anybody, period.
seriousl gay people! stop commenting on this thread….u think u cn get nething through their brainwashed thick skulls? their “theories” n “researches” r like of those primitive tribes dat wud sacrifice a child to hail rain. Their “belief system’ is nothing but a fear system….they parade their God as a henchmen wud parade his boss’s name to instill fear n establish their own power. They dont care who gets crushed when they preach their messages of hate n fear….they dont evn try to understand what humanity is…..they r the radical religionists in every religion, islam,christianity, hinduism….people like this r present everywhere….they dont care about humans n they know nothing about God, love or understanding…
I found this amusing chart yesterday:
http://gizmodo.com/heres-all-the-dirty-details-on-americas-thriving-porn-1208587525
It shows the average duration of visitors of porn web sites by state. Not surprisingly, the born again Bible belt is by far the highest user of porn sites in the US, with Mississippi being number one.
What else ranks Mississippi as #1? Remember this map?:
showing Mississippi having the highest population of born again Christians, over 50%. Guess those Christians just love their porn.
I can picture all those hypocritical born again pastors who are so vehemently anti-gay going home after work, who just can’t wait to get on the computer late at night, telling their wives they’re “writing a sermon.” Right.
You just can’t make this stuff up.
On a more serious note, The U.S. Department of the Treasury announced today that when it comes to Federal taxes, it will recognize same-sex couples’ marriages even if they live in a state that does not. That’s big news.
Not only is being homosexual not so bad for you health, it’s becoming not so bad for your pocketbook as well.
I noticed this pingback: Facts: Evidence that Homosexuality is Hazardous to Health | Creativity Religion posted by Matt Hale.
I think it’s important to let Erik’s readers know who Matt Hale is. He’s a Neo-Nazi White Supremacist leader of the Creativity Movement who was sentenced to prison for 40 years in 2005 for plotting to kill Federal Judge Joan Lefkow. I guess he wrote this post from his cell at the Administrative Maximum prison in Florence, Colorado, where he will live happily until 2037.
Now to his post: this is another smear-the-gays diatribe of made-up facts and figures similar to Dr. Cameron’s nonsensical anti-gay “research” reports written to sound legitimate, pointing to fake, fraudulent, false, or inappropriate sources that have been debunked. He quotes Cameron a lot, who I have already shown to be a con artist who distorts and mis-quotes existing research or just makes up stuff out of the blue and presents it as real research.
I actually found part of Hale’s post funny, since he quotes the “Medical Journal of Homosexuality,” which doesn’t exist, and cites Science Magazine, 18 July 1993, p. 322, which actually was a real university research project which demonstrated that being gay has genetic markers: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/261/5119/321.abstract
He cites Kaifetz, J. “Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some,” Post-Tribune, 18 December 1992.” Who is Jerry Kaifetz? He’s a “preacher with a biblically centered message and ministry.” He’s NOT a researcher or anyone qualified to comment on anything.
He heavily cites Dr. E. Fields, “Is Homosexual Activity Normal?” Marietta, GA. Who is Ed Fields. Fields was co-founder of the America First Party, a white supremacist political party.
I could go on, but why bother? It’s all made up fiction. I guess Erik, or Dr. Cameron, or Mr. Hale don’t realize that people like me can research all this, get books such as The Kinsey Report and The Gay Report, or search the Internet.
I just want Erik’s readers to know.
Thanks for doing some research for me. I did not have the time to research the ping back and I did not mean to allow it until I read the article. Upon reading the ping, I must say, many of the facts are true, but I do not agree with the tone of the author. I know that there is hope for homosexuals, to come to Christ, be born again, and set free from the sin of homosexuality.
Erik,
What do you consider “being set free from homosexuality?” Does this mean to you becoming heterosexual and no longer feeling an attraction to the same gender? Or when you say “set free,” do you simply mean a homosexual who no longer pursues a romantic relationship with the same gender (but still has attractions just as a single heterosexual might feel attractions, but choose not to pursue a relationship)? If it is the latter, I certainly agree that this is possible, as some gay and straight Christians alike are called to celibacy… But if your belief is the former, than this is a common misconception stemming from bad wording on the “ex-gay” ministries part who redefined “gay” as “having gay sex” rather than “having exclusive attractions to the same sex.” Due to this, thousands have become celibate or even married the opposite sex, but their capacity for romantic love and natural attraction for the same gender remains still…. This is the true “ex-gay.” We know that Jesus is a healer, so why then hasn’t He healed homosexuals to become heterosexuals, if this is in fact the only acceptable pairing? Some gays (myself included) have spent years of their life pleading with God to heal them and make them straight, believing in faith it will come to pass… Why then have these prayers all gone unanswered??? This is more than simple temptations Erik. I’m talking about a persons full capacity to experience marital love. Why do you suppose God would refuse to give this ability to love to those who want it when we know that Gods very nature is to not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil?
Homosexuality is a sexual sin just like fornication and adultery. All three are deviations of God’s original plan. A fornicator, once he is born again, will still be tempted to fornicate but he no longer gives into those temptations. An adulterer who cheated on his wife via pornography will still be tempted to look at pornography but now if he is a born again Christian will be able to say no to that temptation. It all comes down to a choice.
All of us have a choice to make everyday, obey what God’s Word says even if I do not feel like it or will I go by my feelings which are based on my sin nature and do what I feel instead of what God says.
I am tempted to fantasize about other women but I choose not to because I know it is wrong to do that, I am married it would be adultery. I am tempted to look at pornography but I choose not to because that would be fornication and adultery.
All of us have a sin nature and that nature is manifested in different ways some in the form of pornography others with fornication others with adultery still others with homosexuality but the difference is as a born again Christian I choose not to give in to that sin nature.
If you are not a born again Christian then you do not have the power to say no to sin and temptation and you will be conquered by that nature. The solution is to repent of your sins and allow God to cause you to be born again giving you the holy spirit so that you have the power to say no to your sin nature and all of its temptations.
Hi Erik,
This is a reply to your reply to me from an earlier post on December 29, 2013. I believe that everything in that post you said is true regarding making a choice to say no to temptation as a Christian. However, I still don’t think you understood my point. Sure, homosexuals that believe that homosexuality is a sin can say “no” to forming a same-gender romantic relationship. But, saying that homosexuality is comparable to adultery, or any other kind of sin for that matter, isn’t comparable. Let’s take your past porn addiction as an example. You keep trying to compare it with someone with exclusive same-gender attractions. Even though you had a problem with looking at porn, this did not stop you from having attraction to real-life women that led you into forming a marriage with your wife. Likewise, someone who is caught in the sin of adultery still initially married and had a romantic bond with their partner enough to form that marriage and it can be restored if they choose to stop their affairs. Homosexuals do not have that option. There is no “turning back” to heterosexuality because it never was in the first place and never can be in the future. My point is that every human is capable of saying no to their sin of struggle, despite their temptations, but for the homosexual, there is no restoration to heterosexuality. If homosexuality is a sin and heterosexuality is blessed, than why does God not allow for those that truly want to be heterosexual become heterosexual so that they can follow God’s plan?
What I am about to say isn’t realistic because it’s NOT comparable, but I just want you to be able to relate a bit more with what the gay Christian with unwanted same-gender attractions is feeling. So please humor me here in imagining this scenario so that you can build more empathy for your fellow neighbor… Let’s suppose when you grew old enough to experience attraction, you ONLY felt that attraction when you looked at porn. You had absolutely zero romantic attraction to anyone in person. Every female in your life around you made you feel nothing more than you could for a brother. The only romantic feelings you had were that of looking at pictures and videos of porn. [Side note: This becomes an even more unrealistic comparison because porn is driven by sexual desire and lust, and gay relationships have the capacity for committed monogamous love; the blueprint for marriage.] One day you feel convicted that porn is wrong, and you stop looking at it. You ask God to help you be attracted to a real-life woman and not just a picture or video. You believe in your heart and soul God will do this for you, because this is the only acceptable pairing in God’s eyes and you have done the right thing by saying no to temptation. You are told by everyone around you that if you just pray and believe hard enough, the attraction to the real-life woman will come so that you can fall in love and get married. You believe and pray and pray. Decades go by and you don’t look at porn even though you miss that feeling. You are completely alone, watching everyone around you be happy in love and getting married, and despite your persistence and obedience to God, He still doesn’t give you a single attraction to a real-life person. You decide to marry a woman anyway, but have no romantic feeling for her to the point of repulsion. Having sexual relations with her feels like cleaning a dirty public toilet with your tongue. Your wife knows you have this lack of feelings for her and feels hurt, betrayed and unloved. You feel alone and lost and ask God to just give you the right feelings so that you can be a good husband and fulfill your wife. These feelings never come…. How would you feel in this situation?
Although the above is completely unrealistic, insert homosexuality for porn and real-life persons for heterosexuality and you’ve got exactly what the gay person feels who wants to be straight but God doesn’t seem to do this. If it is in God’s plan for only a man and woman to join together in a committed monogamous marriage, than WHY do you suppose The Healer won’t do this for those who want it? It would seem that if homosexuality were just a sin or some form of temptation, than God would heal that person and the evidence of healing would be transforming them to heterosexuality. Why doesn’t this EVER happen?? Could it be because homosexuality is not a sin and it is not in need of “healing?” Is it possible that the Bible only condemns harmful forms of homosexual sexual expression (rape, prostitution, lust, etc.) and we have missed the mark as Christians by condemning all gays unless they snuff out their only capacity to form a loving monogamous bond? This would explain God’s absence of answering this prayer to the millions of gays that have prayed to be straight without a single positive result.
Just a thought on what you wrote. There are many heterosexuals who do not act on their feelings. For example, all people are tempted in the area of sexuality but that does not mean we have to act out that temptation. There are many heterosexuals who are celibate. You do not have to give in to your desires whether they are homosexual or heterosexual. That is a very slippery slope that you are on. A pedophile could claim that he just has no feelings for adults, only children therefore I am excused from my behavior. A murderer could say the same. If there is no line drawn in the sand then human nature kicks in and it is not a pretty sight. On those lines, a person who was a pedophile before accepting Christ will still be tempted even after he has been born again. The difference now is that he is able to say NO to his sin and temptation to where as before, he could not. Being born again does not change human nature, instead, it gives you power over human nature. Our nature is to sin and that sin nature is manifested in all kinds of ways. In some it is alcoholism. In others it is sexual immorality in all of its forms (lust, porn, fornication, homosexuality, masturbation etc. ) Basing your actions on feeling is just too dangerous because we feel one way one day and then another way the next.
God is the Great Healer and He can heal your soul. He does not remove temptation from you because you still have a sin nature. You cannot blame Him for that. He offers the solution, to overcome your feelings. I could get mad and scream “why?” but instead, I receive His decision in faith and submit. You can do the same but you choose not to do it. Instead, you make yourself the victim instead of the guilty sinner that you are (so am I). I could play the victim too but I do not because shifting blame does not resolve the problem, just covers it up like sticking a bandage on an infected wound without first dealing with the root of the problem.
Thank you for the reply Erik! 🙂 I feel blessed to have the opportunity to correspond with you. I agree with nearly everything you are saying here, but the main difference between us is that I do not view committed homosexual relationships as a sin as you do. After years of study, I have come to the conclusion (based on studying Scripture in original language and context) that the Bible condemns homosexual sex acts of rape, prostitution, idol sex acts, etc. There is not an example of condemnation against committed same-gender relationships in Scripture. There are many reasons as to why I have come to this conclusion which all have considerably valid points. At the least, when reviewing the evidence, one can see that there is an alternate translation that does not condemn homosexuality as whole WITHIN the Scriptures themselves. Just because the majority of Christians take the simplistic view of modern Scripture to mean being gay is sinful does not mean that they are correct in their assumption. Think back to Old Testament times when the Jews believed that they were the only ones saved and the Gentiles were cast out from salvation. Only a small minority realized that Gentiles could be accepted by God if they also loved Him and followed His commands (under the old covenant), despite their lack of genealogical relation to the chosen Jews. The Law was written to and for the Jews, but Gentiles could be accepted into the fold despite the majority believing that they were all cast out and doomed. Similarly, could it be that the Scriptural doctrine on marriage (as a monogamous life-long commitment) be a blueprint for same-gender couples as well? In the New Testament we read that the message of salvation came “first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.” Could the Biblical marriage commitment have come first to the heterosexual, then to the homosexual minority? If the homosexual union fully lacks lust, adultery, rape, or any other harmful behavior (which is the basis of all sin), could this love in fact be accepted as an alternative to heterosexual marriage?
Exclusive love and affection for the same-gender is different from any other sin temptation like murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc. With these latter sins, the person is born and able to act in opposition to their sin. If heterosexuality is blessed and homosexuality is sinful, than becoming heterosexual would be working in opposition to homosexual sin. Each of the former sins have a capacity for opposition. The murderer does not kill every person they come in contact with. The adulterer has the ability of loving their spouse or they wouldn’t have married in the first place. One couldn’t commit adultery without seeking the marriage to begin with, thus they have the natural capacity for committed love. The thief has the ability of keeping their hands to them self and not stealing. They are not stealing everything they come across and born without the capacity to not steal. The liar has the ability of telling the truth. They are not lying every moment without the capacity to tell the truth. As I have stated before, the exclusively homosexual person does not have the ability to be attracted to the opposite gender. Due to this, homosexuality as just “a sinful temptation” is not comparable to any other sin. Furthermore, how can one compare love with harming people by cheating, lying, stealing and even murder?
Now of course one can be celibate by choice if they believe it is a sinful behavior, but this does not stop them from longing for a loving relationship which they can never attain under these conditions. I have no problem with those who are called to celibacy. We are taught in Scripture that this is a Spiritual gift given by God. But for those that do not possess this Spiritual gift, to ask them to be alone for the rest of their life is a massive burden to bear. Paul teaches us in 1 Corinthians 10:13 “God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the tempting he will also provide the way of escape so that you may be able to endure it.” If there is no way of escaping exclusive homosexual attraction and be “healed” by receiving heterosexual attraction, than how can it be considered a sinful temptation if we are promised to be given a way out by the faithfulness of God? Furthermore, in 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 we read “To the unmarried and the widows I say it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn in passion.” For the heterosexual, it is obvious that marriage is the “way out” from burning in passion. But what about for the homosexual? Marriage with an opposite sex spouse will not satisfy, but in fact do harm to the unloved spouse. So could it be that a committed same-gender partnership is the acceptable “way out” for those who do not possess the gift of celibacy? I can say with certainty that my monogamous commitment with my wife is blessed by God. We have a very God-centered relationship and strive to please The Lord in everything that we do. I have no desire whatsoever to be with anyone else in my lifetime and have zero lustful temptations towards others. If I were to be separated from her and be celibate, I can imagine that it would eventually lead me to be lustful and covetous, as well as completely broken emotionally. I do not believe that God created me to be alone. I certainly do not possess the Spiritual gift of celibacy.
Writing to you has led me to write my own article on these topics which explore the reasons as to why God appears to choose NOT to heal homosexuals into heterosexuals. It also explores all of the theories as to why people experience same-sex attractions and integrates it with Biblical examples of God’s healing power. I invite you to take a look and share your thoughts: http://moanti.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/if-god-is-against-my-homosexuality-than-why-wont-he-heal-me-to-be-heterosexual/
Lastly I just want to say that I do confess that I am a guilty sinner just as you do. I do submit to what I believe the Scripture teaches (we just happen to disagree on this one topic.) When I believed as you (that being gay is a sin), I submitted to this and tried to be heterosexual and spent many years with several male partners. I spent some time in celibacy and my soul felt crushed to the brink of contemplating death. This did not heal the problem. It was not until I was led to uncover the alternate translations within Scripture that I felt peace in my soul with God. My constant fear of hell was replaced by the love and joy of the Spirit. When I first attended my church that is made up of gay and lesbian believers, I felt the presence of God and was overwhelmed with the presence of the Holy Spirit which I hadn’t felt so strongly since I was baptized. My father (a conservative southern Baptist who believes being gay is a sin), attended the church with me and said that he had never felt the Holy Spirit so strong as he did in this church that it brought tears to his eyes (and I had only seen him cry once before.) How could the loving presence of God be so strong in such a place if all were doomed to be rejected on the last day of judgment? I am certain that The Lord loves me and all those that obediently seek to form a relationship with Him. I believe His grace is sufficient, and His power is made stronger in my weaknesses. I now see that being a lesbian is not a curse, but a blessing because it brought me that much closer to my Lord and Savior, despite those who try to shut the door of Heaven on my face who have no authority to do so. I MYSELF am not a behavior, or a temptation, or a sin, or a victim. I am a sinner who is a saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. In Him and only Him am I made righteous before the Father. I am not saved through any works of myself, but through His work of sacrifice for me and you. I long to do His Will and bring Glory to Him. This is my hearts desire and I am at peace with His loving mercy on my soul.
-Moanti
Well, as Mr. Hale so aptly pointed out in his citations, unless Christ is a molecular biologist capable of performing gene replacement therapy, I guess I’ll just have to continue living “the sin of homosexuality.”
There is no proof of a gay gene. All you can do is speculate and make assumptions 🙂
Moanti,
I read with great interest your “Homosexuality and the Bible? An alternative perspective.” http://moanti.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/gaychristians/
I think you’ve done a great service to gay Christians in exploring the literal (and contextual) Hebrew and Greek interpretations of Sodom, Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans and other quotations used to vilify gay people.
Good job!
I think you should write a book.
Gary
Just like you, Erik.
Best wishes to you and your family at this time of year.
Just like you, Erik.
Best wishes to you and your family at this time of year.
(Oops – originally posted as a new comment rather than a reply)
How much more tangible do you need:
1) Fulfilled Prophesy
2) The Jewish Race
3) A changed lifestyle
vs.
Supposed Gay gene
Thanks for the best wishes. My wish for you is that you come to know Jesus Christ as Lord so that you can be set free from the power of your sin nature and live a life that is pleasing to God before you meet Him on Judgment Day.
Speaking of Judgement Day, Erik, I wonder how pleased God will be with you?
You, who bears false witness.
You, who, along with your hero Dr. Cameron, spreads lies, falsehoods, and misinformation about gays which I have clearly documented in several posts.
You, who spreads fear and hatred of gays, even though you say you don’t hate gays.
You, who calls gays “evil people.”
I wonder how God will welcome you?
Please show me where I have borne false witness, using actual evidence of something that I have written.
Show me where I have written that I hate gays. As far as being evil, all people are born evil, as the Bible clearly teaches and human nature confirms. My sin nature, which I was born with, is evil. I had to have a change of heart and that took place when I repented and was born again. I was an enemy of God for 18 years. He did not welcome me then. Once I repented of my sins and admitted that I was not a good person (my thought life and actions proved that over and over) then God accepted me and changed my life. God can do the same for you too Gary but you must come to the point where you humble yourself and admit the fact that you have an evil sin nature and cannot overcome it without God’s intervention. He can change you as He has changed me so that you will not have to face Judgment Day.
I am not going to repeat myself, Erik.
Either you are not reading my earlier posts or you are just being obtuse. Either way, I’m not going to re-hash the specific points I made of your (and Cameron’s that you quote) falsehoods and lies about gay people.
I never said you hate gay people. You’re very careful NOT to say you hate gay people. You’re very clever that way. What I said was that you spread fear and hatred of gay people.
I think the problem with you goes deeper than God or Christ or the Bible or your obsession with Homosexuality and gay sex. I really think you suffer from some sort of post traumatic stress disorder from the trauma of your 18 years of whatever it was your paying penance for. Pornography I think you said it was. So in order to placate the demons in your head, you beat others over the head with your Bible. Instead of self-medicating with drugs or alcohol, you drown out the noise reciting Bible quotes. Homosexuals are an easy mark so they get the brunt of your internalized anger and shame. So you think shaming gays in turn will make you feel better about yourself. It won’t. You think being born again means erasing the past. It doesn’t.
My words may be personally harsh, but you are relentless in your personal condemnation of me and all gay people.
I think in this New Year you need to do some soul searching of your own, Erik.
I called you out on your first accusation of me bearing false witness here. Through clenched teeth you mockingly admitted it and yet you make reference to these same false accusations as proof that I am not being honest. I am confused by your logic. You admit that you were wrong and then use the wrong stuff to prove that I am not being honest 🙂
On another note, I once was tormented by sexual sin but all of that changed when I met Jesus Christ. He set me free and I want to share that freedom with others who have been enslaved by sexual sin (including homosexuals).
Before Christ, I tried self-medicating with drugs and alcohol and it just made things worse.
That is the beauty of being born again, I am no longer angry and I am no longer ashamed. I once was but I found Christ and His Word.
I do not have to shame gays, the lifestyle and conscience is enough (I know because my conscience shamed me when I lived an immoral lifestyle). I want to share the truth of the lifestyle and the fact that there is forgiveness and transformation in Christ.
Being born again may not erase the consequences of the past but it does renew your mind and heart and gives you a clean slate before God, I know because I have experienced it. I am not just talking theory here.
First of all, I don’t clench my teeth.
Secondly, as far as Kinsey’s sexuality is concerned, he said he was bisexual, You say he’s homosexual. Your definition is different than his. Your definition is Biblical, his definition was clinical.
That’s all I can say about that.
As far as you being born again: I can appreciate the effort it took to make the positive improvements in your life. I’m sure your life how is very rewarding with your wife and kids and your mission.
Okay, this is obviously getting nowhere fast. You have a worldview and I have a worldview. You obviously are not going to convince me of yours and I have never tried to convince you of mine. I have shared my experience of applying the Word of God to my life so that others can have a chance to do the same. Some have put the Word into application and others have not. My job is not to convince you. My job is to share the message and pray for you. What you do with it is up to you. One thing that I must point out that is essential to the message of the Gospel is that it is not based upon my “efforts”. I did not “turn my life around”. God did it supernaturally through the power of His Word. If it were up to my “efforts” I would still be a sexual deviant. Thank God that the burden does not rest upon my shoulders but His:
I found rest for my soul and want to let others know about it. That is what I will do for the rest of my life.
Nope. Sorry Erik, you don’t get off that easily.
You started the falsehood and fabrication train and I’m on it now.
The next lie you said was: The Kinsey Report proclaims in a survey that “37% of homosexuals admitted to having sexual relations with boys under the age of 17 years old.”
It’s false. The Kinsey Report never proclaimed any such thing.
Do you even have a copy of the Kinsey Report? Or do you just copy and paste the lies and misinformation that Cameron writes.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m just pointing out for your readers your fabrications and falsehoods. That’s all.
You say: “I found rest for my soul… Well, clearly you haven’t found rest for your soul if you still harbor such deep seated resentment of gay people from whatever or whoever happened in your past. Someone who is born again and found rest for their soul might be against homosexuality and I can understand and accept that, But your malicious attacks, that fact that you need to make up such awful stuff about gay people, reveals to me that you have some unresolved issues, no matter how many Biblical verses you copy and paste.
Once again, I have to remind you of how you dug the pit for me and then ended up falling in it yourself here. That reminds me of another Bible verse.
With all of that research, please pay attention to the dangers of immorality (including homosexuality). The CDC (center for disease control) even lists homosexuals as being at a higher risk for HIV/AIDS (check it out).
As far as the rest of the evidence, I told you that I will answer them one by one, and I will.
Yes, I have a copy of the Kinsey report (it makes me nauseated every time I read it, the fact that infants were sexually stimulated by perverted adults is sickening).
I do not resent gay people. I do hate the sin that they practice and propagate so freely, but that also goes for those who practice and promote cohabitaiton, a sinful lifestyle condemned by God. I do not hate the people who practice it. I hate what it does to them and to society as a whole. I have made no malicious attack, unless you count stating facts “malicious attacks”. Again, I have not made anything up, as I have already proven with your first false accusation.
The Kinsey report does not specify the ages of the partner in the homosexual acts, purposefully leaving it open to speculation
That is very vague yet when pieced together with other studies, it is clear that the adult homosexuals preyed on the adolescences.
Pieced together from what other studies? Cameron’s “research” maybe?
Your initial quote: “37% of homosexuals admitted to having sexual relations with boys under the age of 17 years old” is false. Just admit it.
You can’t infer anything other than what Kinsey said, which was (taken from three paragraphs on page 623):
“The statistics given throughout this volume on the incidence of homosexual activity, and the statistics to be given in the present section of this chapter, are based on those persons who have had physical contacts with other males, and who were brought to orgasm as a result of such contacts. These are not data on the number of persons who are “homosexual.” but on the number of persons who have had at least some homosexual experience, even though sometimes not more than one experience. In these terms (of physical contact to the point of orgasm) the data in the present study indicate that at least 37% of the male population has some homosexual experience between the beginning of adolescence and old age.”
As far as AIDS in the homosexual community, as I said before, I don’t need the CDC to tell me what an epidemic it was and still is in the community. Instead of gloating over the numbers, make a contribution to the AIDS Foundation or AmFAR.
The ONLY thing I could find on Google that connects the Kinsey report and 37% of gays having sex with people under the age of 17 was from stormfront.org which is an overtly white supremacist website, http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t915618-3/
Anything else connecting 37% with the Kinsey report just says 37% of men have admitted to having a homosexual experience…. Since Erik states that he has a copy of the Kinsey report, than hopefully he can provide the direct quote of this accusation (pleeasssseee Erik?) Even if it’s in there, we’re talking about data from over half a century ago and a sample that has already been shown to be non-representative of the general population. I think it’s time to find some new and valid research Erik.
Thank you for the phenomenal compliment, Gary! I am glad that you feel my website provides a good resource for explaining the alternate translations of Scripture to gay Christians. I also really want to reach heterosexual believers who are unaware of the alternate translations, as well as believers like Erik who refute any possibility of monogamous same-gender couples being accepted by God. I think once one sees ALL of the evidence in full, the connections are made and the puzzle pieces are linked together to form a fully probable view of Scripture which is more aligned with God’s loving and sacrificial nature. I would love to write a book! Maybe one day… 😉 Thanks again for your support!
-Moanti
P.S. For some reason the “reply” button wasn’t under your comment to me, so I just replied to this other comment by you instead….
@ Moanti……I’m going to check out your site. Thank you for the information.
I’m glad you are going to read it Vicki. Let me know if you have any questions. 🙂
-Moanti
Helllo, Erik.
I have found your blog through google, searching “homosexuality dangerous”.. While I agree with your article main purpose and facts, and firmly believe the Biblical norms and truth are definitely identifying any and all homosexual activities as sinful, ie detrimental for our own well being and so, transgressive to God’s Law and Love, I want to share with you my feeling..
First, I trust you should either monitor the comments or shut them off. your blog is a Christian blog.. Why, all these debates with unbelievers.. We are urged to not conduct any of these, we are urged to not judge people outside from our own communities yet this is all I see and read.. We are in fact, urged to suffer along with them, pray for them, gently, kindly beg them to consider our words, speeking to their heart.. As the sinner does not live in the house forever, the Son does.. The Christ in each and every human being does.. Amen.
I am dealing not with homossexual tendecnies, but with homophobic tendencies.. You see, I am a 34 old man shaken, messed up in my very identity because of another man’s sexual assault on myself on my early 20’s. A stranger in a public park, tried to force me to a fellation. This, was my first, brutal, sordid encounter with “homosexuality” .. I have buried that event for more than ten years, but after my break up with my first “serious” girlfriend, I was weakened, fragile, vulnerable..A move from my real brother, holding my wirst while we were merely speaking during a weekend with a little if too much whisky flowing, reminded me.. I felt captive again of another man’s will and I am still living in that trauma, right now as I am writing..
My point is, I struggle to not divide humanity in “camps” of straight or gays, in sexual oreintations and whatever labels.. I see us as plein men and women, that is all. I know only a few objective truths on the matter of homosexuality, I am blessed to be a believer and I trust God’s Word judging these as sinful, I leave my “(con)science” of it at that. God knows better, my part is to believe. Now some personal truths, for one I am suffering very much because of today’s propaganda gone way out of hands, the whole majority are tools of lobbies, where I / we have no right to oppose homosexuality as a behavior and a practice anymore, the disctinction is not made between people and the acts by and for the “common” societies, thus I am blamed and judged as an intolerant bigoted homophobe, while I am a victim of a homo-sexual assault, but that, they do not know.. Second, no amount of preaching will change anything. Unless a person aknowledge they need to be helped, they will laugh at you, at us..
I have to leave my computer now and get my dinner, I may post another time, but please, be more welcoming of people, don’t reject them as evil.. We are urged to hate the sin WITHIN ourselves, not in others.. Bless you, and your family. Amen.
Xavier.
I am so sorry to hear that you were sexually assaulted. I am a 26 yo woman. I am a lesbian and when i was 18 i went to the capitol to celebrate in the gay pride parade. I arrived at my sisters home and she was still at work. There was a party at the gay bar across the road and I went there. I was still a child but I thought I was an adult and could take care of myself. I was very lonely during that time and also naive. People were not dangerous to me. I went there and an older woman asked me to play pool and I obliged. She bought me a drink. The only alcoholic beverage I consumed and I took it. I trusted that a woman would not put drugs in my drink. I only wanted a friend. I was not cruising for sex. I was a shy girl and Jesus was and still is in my heart. Anyhow I was drugged and woke up in a home on the other side of the city naked in bed with that terrible woman. After the incident memories started coming back to me as the months went by. They forced me to take drugs and would not let me go back to my sisters. I had to sneak out of the house. I tried to wake someone up to help me but I was unable to as they were all passed out from too many drugs. So I ran. After the incident I felt powerless and worthless. I began drinking excessively. Over the next 6 years I was a drug addict and an alcoholic. I started using drugs with my lesbian friends. We all had pain we didn’t want to feel. I did it because meth worked a lot better than my crappy antidepressants. For once in my life I felt happy so everyday I took a small dose and I garbaged the antidepressants. Eventually I started using more and more. I lost sight of christ. I was not angry at christ. I was angry at myself for being too naive. But it was not my fault. I was afraid of the gay community. Men or women because it was both men and women that held me captive. Eventually I couldn’t keep living life as a speed addict any more and I begged jesus to save me and by his grace I am clean. I am still gay and could never be with a man.
But I want you to know that gay people are not a bunch of rapists. A rapist is in a class of his or her own. That person would sexually assault regardless of gender. Just because someone is gay doesn’t mean they will rape you. Gay doesnt equal rapist or pedophile. Those are completely different.
I understand the pain and difficulty you are going through though. Its a long road.
Hello, Courtney.
I thank you for your courage to share yourself here as openly, I am deeply sorry for what has happened to you.. 😦
I am making much progress with my homophobia, I believe. I trust, or rather I want to believe my offender would self-identify as a heterosexual, however the intent of that gesture and assault was homosexual..
I always were, and make a point to always be very careful not to blame or mock people, for any reason as NOBODY is qualified to judge one another,as “fellow sinners”, only the Word of God does..
So it is all good for me in this aspect of my suffering. What I am dealing with and can”t help for now, is what I will name “blood rushes”, lethal hostility building up within me, as I just see a man person..
😦
I don’t want to be rude, and not start any argument as you suffer so much more than me with your problems, but as Erik says, I pray you can distance yourself from “gay theology” as you believe homsoexuality is not denboucned and condemend in Scriptures, perhaps even condoned by God.., This is all too convenient “teachings” and re-interpetation for people with same-sex attractions.. Indeed men having sex with men are condemned in Scriptures, so are women havign sex with women, regardless of their sexual orientation, to not cast any stone on “homosexuals”
I’ll share with you two links to help you, and any one with doubts, struggles about homosexuality by some reliable sources rooted int he written bible and not interpretation, and pray deeply, compassionately for you,
Truth & Lies about Homosexuality :
http://www.porn-free.org/homosexual_truth_lies.htm
Is the Bible Ambiguous about Homosexuality?
http://thirdmill.org/articles/pat_ramsey/pt.pat_ramsey.homosexuality.html
God SAVE.
Xavier,
As I said to you on Moanti’s blog, I’m very sorry that you have had to deal with the ongoing trauma of your attack when you were younger. The anxiety and depression you live with on a daily basis is heartbreaking to hear.
But you know, as I have commented here and on Moanti’s blog, that the Bible never mentions the word homosexual or homosexuality. The only time it speaks of men lying with men is during idol worship, which is wrong for everyone. If you read Leviticus 18 closely, you will note that the writer was talking about idol worship, specifically fire god Molech. It’s interesting that the verse before and after Leviticus 18:22 are both dealing with Molech worship, so it goes to reason that 18:22 is what people did while in the process of worshipping the pagan god.
Additionally, we’re fortunate now to have access, via the Internet, to the original Septuagint, the Codex Vaticanus, the oldest existing copy of the bible, housed in the Vatican library, written in the 4th Century. If you look at Leviticus 18:22, you will see the exact translation of the verse:
http://en.katabiblon.com/us/index.php?text=LXX&book=Lv&ch=18&interlin=on&diacritics=off
Click on the Interlinear box and you will see a word-for-word translation of the verse. It states:
“And with male not you lie/sleep bed woman, abomination it is.”
So it’s not so clear that Leviticus 18:22 is about men lying with men. You will not lie in the bed of a woman. This is strange to hear at first, but in the worship of Asherah and Baal, women and men had separate worship areas; women had the Asherim, a bed or clearing under trees, and the men had the “high places” as referred to in many places in Leviticus.
All of the verses in Leviticus 18 deal with the various activities that would have taken place when a community of families went to the worship places, It was what we would call today an orgy. They believed that the union of Baal and Asherah produced fertility, so the men and woman of the community god naked and engaged in sex acts to cause the gods to join together to ensure good harvests. (This practice became the basis for religious prostitution that Paul talks about in the New Testament.) Why else would there be a verse 18:20, which states that a man will not lie carnally with his neighbors wife. Why is that necessary to state that when it is already one of the Ten Commandments?
I think you have to have a historical understanding of what took place in the life of Ancient Hebrews. It’s important to also read the original text.
Hi, Gary.
At least, I hope to respond to you directly below your post, I am not used with the format of blogs “reply” button, so where will my post go..
Thank you for your kind words again. I do my own research too, I know French as a native and English pretty well., I have acces to my paper French Bible and all online French and English Scriptures, to see and confront parallels of doubtful / key passages. I have also taken an extremely close look to study these “clubber passages”.concerning “homosexuality” in “interlinear” original languages, too.
First things first, even hypocrite as it seems, I have no personal interest in both the appoval or disapproval of homosexuality by God in Bible Scriptures, I really am at peace with my “case” at rest, thanks to the account of Sodome already adressing what actually offended me, the horror of homosexual rape and their lurking authors dealt with by GOD’s righteous condemnation and Judgment, so it is with a new, fresh, unbiased mind and heart I can now approach this subject, not anymore with bleeding emotional response.
Second important mention, the two links I have shared are very precise in dealing with most pro-gay allegations as well as Moanti and your arguments / claims. As the last adressed lie in the first article rightfully states, it is akin to science-fiction a “conspiracy theory” of homophobic humans cheating God’s Will in mistranslating Sriptures, just to single out and vilify gays.. This is offensive and derogatory to the integrity of Scholar’s work over the centuries to work on such a basis as pro-gay theologians are actually building, and so I voice it.
That said, and with all the objectivity I can EVER use, I just can not find any flaw in the correspoondance, and introducing of the terms “homosexuality” and “homosexuals” to replace “men having sex with men” and “abusers of themselves with mankind” indulging in the aformentionned on a regular basis, ie living an evident homosexual lifestyle by today’s callings..
I don’t believe current gays are any different with “ancient” gays, like any significant genes mutations or behavior occured, therefore justifying the modern use of modern terms. It just makes perfect sense to me, as offensive and hurting it MIGHT be for persons self identifying as homosexuals because of their specific temptations, yet that DO NOT live the lifestyle, ie the confusion around orientation and behavior, it is still actual Scriptures writings and teachings applying on the ones persons living their homosewual lifestyle as they have chosen to, believers and unbelivers alike…
About this confusion of condtion and behavior, I can do nothing this is gay lobbies semantic manipulative strategy hurting their own people, in the same way homophbia conveniently ecompasses the reject of homosexualty and homosexuals.. For my own resposnability, if asked or as I could assume a situation really request me to, I just shield myself with Scriptures teachins to confront the devil lies, not sorry to say but most if not all pro-gay claims working with the goal of deceiving our weak minds to believe homosexualty as God ordained and a rightful, legitimate part of human sexuality as God intended, ie “Did God really say.. homosexuality is a sin..?” I quote and obey these verses of Scriptures as relating to the gay behavior rather than unwanted desires, as not willingly indulged and developed in one’s fantasy before acts, the actual object of the condemnation, so I believe and support, and pushes onward as a diligent Chrisitan.
Still, I love homosexuals all the same but hate the sin of homosexuality nonetheless, in the same way I hate the idea / reality of incest, bestiality, adultery, all these unlawful sexual relations mentioned in Scriptures in the same verses, indiscriminately.and will fight, oppose, denounce and condemn that behavior and practice tooth and nails in me, and lovingly warn of such things people I have a responsability to educate and take care of, family relatives, close friends and ANY fellow professing Christians..
Do take care, Gary, no hard feelings between us, please this is ot a post I make as an open attack or any ground for debate, I do’nt want any as I don’t care, so many Internet studies of experts are proving the Traditional views are in line with the actual History of Scriptures teachings it’s just no use, to me at least..
Not curious of your privacy but please allow me to express my simple yet hearty care and prayer, that you are “only” struggling with homosexual temtpations, not living them as your lifestyle..
God Save.. Amen.
Xavier,
Since you mention it in your last paragraph, I’ll finish by saying that I am not “struggling with homosexual temptations.” I have been gay since birth. I was “out” to my family, friends and co-workers for 30 years, and my partner and I have been together for 28 years and raised three kids. As a person well educated in the Bible, I know in my heart and for a fact that homosexuality is not evil nor is it a sin.
This is not directed at you, but the only struggle I have is with people who have no understanding of the history of ancient Middle Eastern pagan idol worship or misquote the Bible to validate their fear and prejudice of gay people, much like Southern preachers used their Bibles in the Old American South to preach the evils of Black people and to validate slavery and segregation.
My only hope is that maybe in time, people will mature, and learn the true meaning of Scripture.
Hi, Gary.
I know for a fact sexual orientation of the human person is most often pre-determined by early childhood unfulfilled needs and actually fulfilling “experiences” working as strong factors.. Also taking into account an individual’s own temper and character, all of this confronting and uniting within one self is then highly likely to become erotised around the teenage, with body, hormonal changes and sexual awakening, more importantly by one’s community interactions, from reliable healthcare studies.
However, sexual orientation is not inborn, not determined but influenced, even strongly as it may and subject to change over the course of one’s life experiences, this is also a fact.. As adults we do have FREE WILL to chose for ourselves, and the Holy Spirit is promised to help believers live as God intended.. It is stated as impossible for humans to overcome our sinful desires by ourselves.. Only by God’s Spirit (and our fellow Christians community) on-going support can we live the Christian life, with God and His Word as our common root, food, goal and daily focused standard.. Amen.
For all I see to help our children sexual orientation growth, the key is to educate our children in the “things of life” early, in Godly sexualtiy, ie the loving relationship and privacy of one man and one woman engaged to each other in Marriage, not at all tell them homosexuality is equal with heterosexuality, in actions or in values, the blatant lie..
I am a young, immature, sinning, sick man, but one honest Christian and student of Scripture. idol worship / pagan temples, male prostitutes and cultic sex are indeed addressed in their specific place and time, that is in Kings books I believe, but even as the baxckground, prevalent and rampant homosexuality of the Ancient time, such activities are not presented or even suggested in both Leviticus and Romans accounts, to pin the decisive ones.. Adultery, incest, bestiality are all prohibited in the very same verses of text and context, as other Godly defined unlawful sexual relations, the very structure of the verses and the common nature of sexual activities pinned as offensive to God, by God is nullifying the possibility,these other sexual activities mentioned allong with the homosexual one could also happen in an idol worship context, but indeed in general, in “bedroom”.. This is as objective as it gets, written with black ink on white paper.. Only wishful thinking and special pleading can defy this state of things, as it’s not an interpetation.. Sorry. for my bold statement but truth must be told without comrpomises, we’re not children anymore.
I have little knowledge if at all of both life and Scriptures, but I know the human being has a bad heart for being one myself, our damnation is certain and well deserved, without God’s Grace.. However, by the few of God’s Holy Spirit and Wisdom I can benefit, I will share some insight,. At the end of Romans, Paul write of God’s Verdict over “people doing such things”, ie men and women engaging in homosexual activities so both gay and lesbian, as “worthy of death by God’s Justice”.. This is terrible by today’s political correctness but this is also Scripture and God’s RIGHT to Judge the created to His rules.. My point is, that “verdict” or judgment” is obviously a direct reference to Leviticus death penalty, confirming the actual understanding of Scriptures by Jews of that time all throghiout the Old and Neww Alliance, uncovering the ACCURATE meaning and translation of Leviticus decreet as I see you struggle with, lately.. A honest reader will aknowledge they were idneed understand and are properly translated as general codnemantion of homsoexuality, for both genders even before Christ by the Jews, as Paul was very wel l ducated about the Law.. Same for “arsenokoites” a direct term Paul is using from the Leviticus account Greek Scritpure addressing “men sleeping (sexually) with men”..
Finally, the association of idolatry and homosexuality by Paul / God’s Holy Spirit inspiring him to address it, is making much sense by the very text, the worship of the created instead of the Creator, chosing one another of identical gender instead of the opposite, different, naturally created by God partner. Another idolatrous aspect and this is not a blame on gays, yet narcissism is impossble to evacuate from homosexual relations, taking for object of one’s love attributes of one self, even if they are also in another being.. Ie, masculinity, feminity, penis, vagina, body shape of the man or woman, strenght, softness, etc.. Homsoexuality not only has idolatry for root, it Is idolatry in and of itself ind enying the other gender.. I say along with God’s Word and Will, homosexuality, as same-sex sexual intimacy deserves untreatable condemnation by God for creating us as pro-creative and complementary.genders and beings, even if it hurts gays feelings, they are rebelling against God’s created order and deserve God’s Verdicty shoudt they not repent by the end of their given times.. Period.
Harsh but Scipture writings, objective Biblical truth.. I will not silence and ignore the rest of the same verses aither, as I am seemingly preaching an awful condemnation of gay people,using the Word of God if I stop now, the text close with the promise of renewal and washing, the Grace of God for “homosexuals” leaving their selfish, sinful lifestyle for God’s love.. A liar leaving their lies is not a liar anymore.. A murderer changing his / her way is not a murderer anymore.. Same goes for a homosexual renouncing to same-sex sexual behaviors. Amen.
My conclusion about this is, objectively and unarguably, homosexuality is defined as sinful in Scripture. This is not the ill work of humankind to portray it as such, but just an aspect of the Revelation of the Biblcial God’s sexual ethics and moraity, totally in line with all others sexual prohibitions presented in the very same verses of Leviticus unlawful sexual relations, crushing firm against all attempts of re-interpretation.. The ONLY blessing of God is given over conjugal sexuality, within the Biblical Marriage of a man and a woman, for life..
Disclaimer, I am speaking in general here and do not single out “gays”, by the way, for new readers that might be shoked, to warrant a blame on myself, I discern very well between the sin to hate and the sinner to love.. I am sorry to state this, but a TRUE believer has to accept and surrender their limlted human understanding, their views and personal interests to trust and obey God, this is the “proof” of their good faith.. Otherwise they are among the lost as deceived, for rejecting what is reveled for believers to keep and to do, for rebelling against God created order and Will, instead slaves to the devil by the worship some idol to justify and suport their sin(s) of choice, according to Scripture.. Amen.
As far as I am concerned and indeed wish, chose to keep it as convenient, I won’t be hypocrite on pretending the contrary, I won’t lie and deny it, yes I love the fact homosexuality is unlawful by God’s standard, it makes my very soul tiingle in relief as I rejoice in the Truth of God’s Word, I love it and I love to keep it that way, as a matter of integrity in both myself and Scripture actual xritings and teachings.. This might make me a disguting homohpboc asshole as I have been labeled, a seemingly hateful person toward “gays” by today standards but what do I care of others pecreption of my intetnions, I know my motives are noble and in the best interest of my fellow sinners at the end of the day, I don”t wrong others in any significant and discriminatiing way.. The World’s approval..? Only God’s approval can make or break a man. “Holiness before God is our goal — not acceptance by sinners.” .. Amen.
Now,about the one point actuallty getting my poor nerves, if I pay too much attention to it as I take it as direct attack on my “shelter” if I may say, the “Pro-Gay Theology” movement hard at work to introduce homosexuality within the Church.. I will be blunt, they are my enemies and I am not naive to deny it, I believe they are workers of Satan, not any less for attacking Scriptures fundations. Their claims and work is doomed in trying to disprove traditional teachings, this is akin to try and remove the love of Jesus from Christian believers, it is just not happening..The burden of proof, of History is showing “our” traditional, consistent faithfulness and integrity with Scitpures writings and teachings. Attacking what’s already written and established is plainly stupid and sickly offensive, dangerously close to unforgivable as professing Christians, in accusing Bible writers and Church fathers of ill wil and misguided faith motivated by homophobia and prejudice against gays, this won’t pass, ever, I judge this awful and say, shame to them..
Where “pro-gay theology” could succeed is to try and convince “conservatives” in reforming Biblical sexual ethics with new meanings of inclusiveness of homosexuality as not sinful anymore under certain conditions, ie a “gay marriage” licenced by the Church,. This is possible but I don’t see it happening and myself am totally opposed to it, first because it is not necessary as I said, current gays are not different with “ancient” gays to warrant this change, even by human sciences discovering the hardly changeable orientation build around chidlhood, it is selfish to shake the entire moral teachings for the current well being of not even 5% of the human population over 95% of the rest, ignoring the aftermath for next generations, I am sorry but this is it..Now my “biased”, personal reason, is in the name of human dignity as genderd beings, my stance is obviously fueled and driven by my own personal experience of how inhuman, horrible, abominable, detestable it is for a man to suddenly be treated like a woman, by a fellow male.. Last and BEST reason, token as Jesus HIMSELF warning us at the very end of the Bible, anyone cutting or adding to the Law is accursed by God.. Amen.
Please check, if you will, this article and its source website about the key talkings points about this, as it is well rounded and not at all homophobic propaganda :
http://www.pureintimacy.org/a/answering-pro-gay-revisionist-theology-talking-points/
Sorry for my grim and serious text.. I just had express myself somewhere.. Now, now more “human”, personal and way cooler, I trust the Catholic Church has the best teachings and udnerstanding to accompany a homosexual person in their Chrsitian faith, I sicnerely hope you have chosen, or can chose to trust them enough to follow them, Gary.
I don’t judge and pray for you truely, actually even stronger now.. Remain the objective Biblical truth prevalent over subjective human experience as self-deceiving, “let God be true and every human being a liar” .. In your accopunt, Gary you do not aknowledge homosexualtiy to be sinful, as you write it for living it from your early age.. I do not know if you are professing as a Christian, but if you are, you are objectively wrong in your belief in this aspect, Sorry, it is my duty to say and speak truely to you by our common Faith in the same God and His Unique Word, as a fellow brother in Christ…
This is just a long insomnia comment, to be frank and please Gary, as you know me some by now, take it as plain as it is, a throw-about of my thoughts and feelings, of my beliefs here, not at all directed at you or the gay community members or allies. i consider myself a friend and ally of homosexuals too, however not unconditionally my limit is at people, gay or else attacking God’s Word, ie defying the Scripture authority and I genuinely LOVE to “love” you all as I can, in speaking truth and being of help! I sincerely apologize for hurting certain persons feelings by my words and positions expressed ehre, but I don’t back from them either. I am not an english native to manage the language as I should, so sometimes I can make big mistakes.. I don’t expect a reply either, actually I wish for none as it just keep me interested in communicating, and I need rest, for my body and mind obsessions huhu..
Take good care, Gary!! 🙂
God SAVE.
Editing something with a small new post, owning up to my own mstake, as I must.
I wrote :
“At the end of Romans, Paul write of God’s Verdict over “people doing such things”, ie men and women engaging in homosexual activities so both gay and lesbian, as “worthy of death by God’s Justice”.
I apologize, that “Verdict” is falling and accurate for ALL OF US SINNERS, as it seems I DO single out Gay and Lesbian persons ONLY to deserve death, I am really sorry for this mistake, I am French native, as poor an excuse that is as an explanation.. 😦
These “decrees” of God’s Judgment over sin and sinners were known by the Jews, receiving the Law by Moses but the “Gentiles” only had the Law written in their heart by God, no prophets and stone tablets.. This is the correct meaning of the text I have quoted
Following..
“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
All these mentioned wrong attitudes and acts ARE NOT done by homosexual persons alone, OF COURSE NOT but ANYONE OF US can do these evil things, lacking self-control and falling in sin.. Paul just state things as God sees them in this passage over the pagan world, by His Holy Spirit here, with the homosexual behavior symptomatic of our suffering, sinful nature without God..
To justify my point, and validate my reasoning, however, looking at what is, who are actually “worthy of death”, requiring punishment by death penalty in the written Law of the Jews from what Paul has mentioned, we can only identify the required death of murderers, and authors of homosexual acts by stoning before the congregation, holding my argument as valid to narrow the accurate understanding and meaning of Leviticus punishment for sexual sins, by Jews of the Ancient time.
Please accept my sincere apologies again, for my incomplete and seemingly singling out of homosexuals as “worthy of death”, again WE ALL ARE WITHOUT GOD’S GRACE… Amen.
Love,
God.Save.
Me, and my OCD with editing, lol..
Identifying more or them sins and sinners “worhty of death”, good article and website :
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm
Relevant here by Paul non-exhaustive list :
– Murder
– Disobedience to parents
– Homosexual acts
– Blasphemy
CHRIST took the death penalty on Himself to SAVE US from the deserved God’s WRATH, that WILL come and DESTROY SINNERS supposedly after our death at Judgment; if we don’t repent NOW from our sins.. Amen.
Closing this time, all said and done as I wanted to.. Sorry.
God bless.
Hi, Erik. Xavier again, after yet another “fight” with homosexuality advocates tearing me to shreds for my “opinions” on a public forum, I have come to the definitive argument against them.. I want to share it with you and on your page, what must be said to them, to set that matter once for all..
Please, Moanti do read and consider, actually PLEASE trust and obey as this is also for you, as much as I feel for your condition, and situation..
Okay.. Just two points, not “my 2 cents” biased, ignorant homophobic personal opinion that “does not count” but God’s WORD and WILL :
1. God designed Marriage for man and woman, so they are no longer two but ONE FLESH.
2. God designed sex for Marriage. ALL sexual prohibitions in Scriptures are rooted in that TRUTH.
In this LIGHT, homosexual sex and “marriages” are illegitimate to the sight of God, and accursed by God. That is all, and AMEN.
Hi Xavier,
I know we have a “pact” not to debate homosexuality together in order to maintain the unlikely, yet beautiful friendship that we have built. So although writing on this website, I am not speaking of this topic specifically. I am also writing to all on this website, not just to you. I felt compelled to say as a reminder that ALL sin is worthy of death. Romans 6:23 reminds us. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” And we have ALL sinned. As Romans 3:23 states, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” James 2:10 also reminds us. “For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.” Therefore, ALL of us have no excuse. None is better than another, alone. We have only One who saves us from the wages of sin which is DEATH. Without Him, ALL would be put to death. His words to us declare, “Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3.) Therefore I remind to all the accusers on this website the words of our Savior who says, “3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:3-5). Are you without sin, i.e. without a plank in your own eye (all that write as an accuser of the one ‘sin’ you do not participate in.)?
We must ALL humble ourselves before The Lord. He is our only Salvation. None is worthy in the sight of our glorious God Yahweh without the blood sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Yeshua. Praise Yahweh, the God of Israel, for His Son and loving sacrifice! Without Him, ALL WOULD DIE. Holy is His name above all names! Our salvation is ONLY through Him, therefore, any other talk of being “innocent” in our own sins is sinful self-righteousness. If we are going to boast at all, let us boast in the works of our Messiah, not our own works… Therefore instead of being like the Accuser, let us multiply believers by showing the nature of what brought us to our Savior. Was it out of terror of judgment that we came to The Lord? Was it because of Hell that we seek Him? Or was it His loving sacrifice to die for us in our place so that we could be given something NONE OF US deserve, (the gift of eternal life with our Creator?) I say these words as a reminder to all so that we may build each other up in love. As it states in Romans 13:10, “Love is all the law demands.” So let us go forth to build up Christ, rather than to tear down in His name. We are all in the same boat of judgment of death without His Holy sacrifice.
Your sister in Christ,
Moanti
Hi good sister,
Ahh, I delight in your post, thank you!!
I have taken an unfortunate short-cut in writing my previous post, it went without bad motive, out of an insomnia wake and because it always made sense to me ONE sin is enough to warrant damnation before our HOLY GOD, but I sincerely apologize again, hoping my shameful correction is welcomed and I totally back each and every of your good words here, absolutely Sciptural!
To the pelasure of corrspondng together in our bloooming friendship. ^^
Your sinning brother in Christ,
God SAVE.
No offense was taken Xavier! 🙂 I just felt compelled to remind us all that we are all under the penalty of death without our Savior!
This article is written in a fashion that suggests the writer is not educated in the field of medicine or statistics. He used a outdated study that was published in 1990. The fact is that homosexual society has changed very much in the last 20 years and the hiv epidemic is under control. That study was created during the aids epidemic and the data does not apply to current homosexuals now. Further more that particular study focused on men. I disregard this entire blog entry because the fact is that the data collected is ancient. You cannot use stats, especially those particular stats and tell me that they apply to homosexuals today. I myself am a healthcare professional and work in the “medical field” as the writer would say. I treat many people for STDs and many are heterosexual. Some are homosexual. If I decided to observe the people coming in for treatment I could argue being heterosexual is dangerous. But obviously this would be erroneous because this study would not be able to capture the full picture. Stop focusing on homosexuality as a problem. The root of the problem is promiscuity, poor education or just choosing not to have safe sex. Even with safe sex one cannot prevent all infections. Herpes is a good example. You can still get genital herpes even when using condoms. Also the bible does not condem homosexuality. The word homosexual was added into the bible. Im not going to explain all of this because I want you to Do your own research.
If you want to write something people will take seriously then use current data, research both sides of the debate and do not bring the medical field into your argument by claiming that it supports your opinion. I put a lot of time and effort into reading and critiquing studies to decide which treatments would benefit my patients. I took One look at the studies you have chosen and they are crap studies. Old, biased crap studies.
So, the tangible evidence of the 90’s is not enough to convince you. When you have been brainwashed then you will not accept evidence in black and white. I pray for you, that you would encounter the Jesus of the Bible and not the idol of your own imagination so that you can be set free from the sin of homosexuality.
Courtney,
You’re right that the study that Erik cites in his source of the Paul Diggs, M.D. paper is out of date and that much has changed since 1990.
I think it’s important to point out for Erik’s readers how a legitimate peer-reviewed scientific paper can be exploited within the anti-gay community.
I’m not in the medical field, but I have volunteered in the AIDS community for many years and I have an advanced biochemistry degree and did a thesis paper on HIV, so I’m very familiar with most of the clinical studies in the HIV/AIDS community.
The 1990 Hoover, et al, paper, quoted by Erik’s source, Dr. Diggs, was based on the Multi-center AIDS Cohort Study, which is the first and largest study specifically designed to examine the natural history and progression of AIDS. It is now in it’s 3rd decade and involves nearly 7000 gay men at study centers at UCLA, the University of Pittsburgh, John Hopkins University, and Northwestern University in Chicago. The study started recruiting gay men in 1984 from bars, bathhouses, and health clinics, specifically looking for men who would most likely contract the AIDS virus, since that was the whole point of the study: to examine the biochemistry of how the body seroconverted from HIV negative to HIV positive, and also to study the virologic, immunologic, psychosocial, clinical, and neurologic aspects of the disease. One of the most important findings of MACS was the discovery of the cell mutations that gives some people a natural resistance to HIV, which is proving useful in vaccine research.
So to quote the 1990 Hoover paper is misleading on several fronts:
1. The study actively recruited promiscuous gay or bisexual who were most likely to come into contact with the AIDS virus. It is not intended, nor does it in any way represent, the general gay population. To suggest, as Dr. Diggs does in his paper, that a “20-year-old gay man had a 50 percent chance of becoming HIV positive by age 55” is a complete falsehood.
2. In 1990 the mortality rate for AIDS was virtually 100%. It wasn’t until the era of combination therapy in 1997 that the mortality rate started to decline and since about 2000 a person who is HIV positive is more likely to die of something other than an HIV related illness. According to the National Institutes of Health, HIV, properly treated, is now just another disease with a mortality rate lower than heart disease, complications from diabetes, or cancer, just to name a few.
Erik has, in past posts, regularly quoted the papers of Dr, Paul Cameron, Dr. Paul Diggs, Dr. Loren Marks, and Dr, Mark Regnerus. All of these men are well versed in spreading outright lies, falsehoods, and misinformation about the gay community.
So the dangers existed, that is all I wanted to know 😀
Of course the dangers exist. I never said they didn’t. What’s your point?
My post is only to point out that legitimate research is misrepresented and used to misinform.
You’re not just an ignorant bigot. You’re a hateful ignorant bigot that spreads harm in the name of an imaginary friend. You’re sick. Get help.
Since “sister” Moanti is not willing to publish my “controversial” comments on her “heretic” blog, threatening the well-being of her very own “alternative perspective” credo…
Please do not be deceived, readers!
Here is one relevant, admirable example of what being a “gay” Christian REALLY IS ABOUT :
1 : http://thoughtful-faith.blogspot.fr/2012/01/is-there-gospel-for-homosexuals.html
2 : http://thoughtful-faith.blogspot.fr/2012/01/is-there-gospel-for-homosexuals-can.html
3 : http://thoughtful-faith.blogspot.fr/2012/01/is-there-gospel-for-homosexuals-is-god.html
4 : http://thoughtful-faith.blogspot.fr/2012/02/is-there-gospel-for-homosexuals.html
God SAVE,
Your brother in Christ.
Anthony, I’m very relieved to see your second response. Apology accepted. I have only denied comments on my blog that are spam or blatantly inappropriate (like a man who was bragging about his sex life with many women and much more graphic things that are not edifying.) I’m open to all comments, and by the way, I also really am enjoying these links. My only request is to be more aware of how quotation marks might discourage some. To quote “sister” is to demean my place in the body of Christ as your sister in Christ. This only makes me sad because I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit lives within me, and my salvation in Christ is only by His grace, and this I have all faith. His blood is enough to save even me! I will finish your response as soon as I’m able. Apologies to Erik for conducting this on here… But I encourage all to read Anthony’s links.
Your sister in Christ,
Moanti
Hello, Moanti,
My apologies about my use of quotations marks on “sister” to adress you, I was upset and frustrated, convinced (at the time I wrote this) you was refusing to publish my comments, unfairly…
This other link is the most honest and true I can find to help, to share :
http://www.porn-free.org/homosexual_truth_lies.htm
My short and definite answer on the matter :
Biblically, It is “okay to be gay” in term of suffered orientation,,and social identity.
Biblically, it is NEVER “okay” to BEHAVE gay, God command against it. PERIOD.
Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to please a God they do not believe in…
My final warning, and humble stepping stone out of CARE, as a brother in Christ.
God save.
Hmm…
My sincere apologies to Moanti, for my assumptions of moderating me unfairly, it really seemed so to my eyes, out of knowledge about devices problems.
I am sorry to have concluded that, wrongly.
Thank you Erik, for publishing my comment, it was simply my Christian “duty” to highlight these articles and their author, praising this “gay” Christian person setting such an example!!
God save, and let us know, ALWAYS…
Salvation is available for all who repent and entrust Jesus!
“Acts 3:19 : Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out.”
AMEN!
Christian57,
It a shame you didn’t live in the American Old South in the 19th Century. Instead of a website called “Truth & Lies about Homosexuality,” you could have written a blog called “Truth and Lies about Slavery,” with the subtitle “Scriptural Vindication of Slavery:”
It could start out with a quote from Ebenezer Warren, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Macon, Georgia:
“Slavery forms a vital element of the Divine Revelation to man. Its institution, regulation, and perpetuity, constitute a part of many of the books of the Bible …. Both Christianity and Slavery are from heaven; both are blessings to humanity; both are to be perpetuated to the end of time …. Because Slavery is right…and, too, because their Maker has decreed their bondage.”
Then you could have had a great Bible Verse, say, Leviticus 25: 44-46:
“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.”
Then another quote from Richard Furman, president of the South Carolina State Convention of Baptists:
“… for the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.”
Then another quote from the Bible, Ephesians 6:5:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,
The it would be great for you to have a section called Truth or Lies about Slavery:
1. Slavery is an inherited orientation, as “I was born a Slave.” That’s TRUE!
2. Slavery is not a sin but rather a gift from God. That’s TRUE!
3. The 10 Commandments do not address Slavery, therefore it is permissible. That’s TRUE!
Wow, I guess as an Evangelical Christian who clearly follows the Bible in all areas, you have no problem being a slave owner. Or are you one of these people who is a Biblical relativist. One of those who picks and chooses which verses to follow?
To get to the heart of this, there is an excellent 2013 article by Morgan Guyton about Doug Wilson, a megapastor from Moscow, Idaho, who argued in his book “Black and Tan” that the abolitionist movement was wrong and the Civil War should have never happened:
“”Christians must live or die by the Scriptures, as they stand. Compromise on what the Bible teaches about slavery is directly related to the current pressures to compromise on abortion and sodomy. Southern slavery was an example of the kind of sinful human situation that called for diligent obedience to St. Paul’s directives, on the part of both masters and slaves.”
So in the real world we live in today, the question is: Is the Bible culturally contextual?
“If Paul says for ladies to wear hats in church, then they need to do that today even if uncovered hair had a different, explicitly erotic meaning in Roman culture that it doesn’t have today. If you allow context to be part of your biblical interpretation, then you’re sliding down the slippery slope into liberalism.”
I ask: Does a straight man who goes into a pagan temple to engage in fertility rites with a temple prostitute so that he may have more children, rituals that have been practiced for centuries, does that apply to homosexuality today? Does that apply to anything today? Of course not.
As I’ve said here on Erik’s blog, It’s easy for Evangelical Christians to cite Biblical passages to promote slavery, White Supremacy, Segregation, Anti-Semitism, misoginy, and against Interracial marriage.
So, Christian57, are you a biblical literalist or a relativist?
Equating indulging in “homosexual behavior”, an act of the WILL and a religious SIN against the Biblical God moral requirements upon His Chidlren, with “slavery”…. Equating “ladies should (must?) wear hats in the church” with “women DELIBERATELY exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones” is a no no.
By the way, a strong sense of permanence, of HABIT (read, of “lifestyle) is expressed by this word “exchanged” repeated at three occurences by the Apostle, followed by “in the same way also the men ABANDONED the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another”…
In Romans 1 Paul expresses the DUE wrath of God punishing the unrighteous, unrepentant sinners, wrong doers of all times, targeting individuals conducting or submitting to habitual homosexual acts at any time of our human history…
Important to note, Scriptures do not talk of “sexual orientation” or “sexual identity”, it is a mistake, called “eisegesis” to read into the Bible with these modern notions in mind, but sexual acts, that, it does in a clear and direct manner to any honest reader, of the most basic education to the most refined…
Anwyay…
I am more of a litteralist than a relativist Christian, I believe in the Biblical God’s (and scriptures revealing us God’s character and WILL) absolute authority over human morality… I pray to be a well balanced and reasonable human person, Christian believer and follower… I am not keeping anybody accountable of their behavior to me, people outside of the “church”, God judges them.
To live outside of the “church”, not being under the new covenant of Christ means DUE wrath of God for the unrighteous, without the deal Jesus settles for believers to pay for their sins, placing faith in His blood satisfying God’s DIVINE RETRIBUTION is at the heart, the culminating event of Scriptures, this call to repentance, this FREE INVITATION AS WE SINNERS WOULD NEVER BE WORTHY BY OUR OWN WORKS, God’s offer to our human FREE WILL and THE LOVE OF GOD FOR US, GIVING HIS OWN SON LIFE FOR US to have a chance at Eternal life with GOD is the living and bleeding core of the Gospel…
Then, our LORD calling to Holiness, summons his followers, to love God (the God of Israël, the one prohibiting sexual immorality for His People, Israël Jews back then did not change and does not change) and to love others as much as oneself.. Amen.
My “disclaimer” :
Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to please a God they do not believe in…
Yet…
At their own peril and a hell they set for themselves, a path they chose out of their own free will, putting them at odds with the Sovereign Biblical GOD shall they not turn to Him and repent of their sins in the name of Jesus-Christ before their final breath, with a SINCERE, contrived and grieving heart, it is VITAL to keep the truth spoken in love, Biblical, Godly love ie with care and respect, about choices and their consequences, presented in the hopefully, clearest possible fashion.
God saves the repenent sinner, the unrepentant one is judged guilty and punishable by God, “worthy of death” unless and until this change of heart, of mind, conversion to accepting Jesus for Lord and Savior and the commitment to serve the Biblical God, to sin no more… Amen.
I repeat :
My “disclaimer” :
Unbelievers are free to go their own way, of course and not expected to stop pursuing their romantic / sexual preferences to please a God they do not believe in…At their own risk and on their own decision.
Hmmm…
In case I wasn’t clear, this passage of my comment…
“By the way, a strong sense of permanence, of HABIT (read, of “lifestyle) is expressed by this word “exchanged” repeated at three occurences by the Apostle, followed by “in the same way also the men ABANDONED the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another”…
In Romans 1 Paul expresses the DUE wrath of God punishing the unrighteous, unrepentant sinners, wrong doers of all times, targeting individuals conducting or submitting to habitual homosexual acts at any time of our human history…
Important to note, Scriptures do not talk of “sexual orientation” or “sexual identity”, it is a mistake, called “eisegesis” to read into the Bible with these modern notions in mind, but sexual acts, that, it does in a clear and direct manner to any honest reader, of the most basic education to the most refined…”
Answers your question :
“I ask: Does a straight man who goes into a pagan temple to engage in fertility rites with a temple prostitute so that he may have more children, rituals that have been practiced for centuries, does that apply to homosexuality today? Does that apply to anything today? Of course not.”
I politely “urge” you and any honest reader to correct your / their misconception, maybe convenient conclusions that God does not deal with consensual, habitual homosexual acts in Scriptures.
Another evidence the Biblical God is condemning of CONSENSUAL homosexual acts, not the “coerced” “gang rape” and “shrine prostitutes”, culurally bound kind of homosexual acts, is found here :
Lev. 20:13
“If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (NASB)
The two partakers, “partners” engaging, indulging in the homosexual act mentioned in this verse are BOTH condemned, this is CONSENSUAL HOMOSEXUAL INTERACTION that is condemned here regardless of the place and time it happens, and the two men are JUDGED GUILTY by GOD’S MORAL LAW ON SEXUALITY…
The reciprocal punishment indicates reciprocal responsibility….
Another note, admittedly, the Leviticus passages only deals with male homosexuality, and yet…
I quote :
“Ancient law codes, being didactic, do not need to be “consistent” with our modern, precision-oriented expectations; the condemnation of male homosexuality applies by exension to female homosexuality, just as laws that say “If a man…” do not mean a woman can get away with the same act with no punishment. (It’s also questionable how widespread such behavior would have been anyway, given how closely guarded daughters would have been in the ancient household.)”
Source :
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/lev18.php
So there you have it…Chose who you trust to serve, and be wise, people!!
Christian57,
Since you say that you’re a Biblical literalist, I assume then that you believe in slavery. If that’s the case, then at least you’re consistant in your reading of Scripture so I have no argument with you.
Hi, Gary, this is nonsense you are speaking about…
I am not belonging to a designed and defined “group” or “category” of people holding some set of obscure and osbcured mind-hive beliefs outside of the one “group” called the “church” in general, I am a mere, humble member among the followers of Christ walking under His New Covenant, and trying my all to be obedient to live by the Holy Spirit impulses, serving God …
I am believing and following the overall plain and simple, yet deep and complex traditional Christian teachings, revealed by the Holy spirit and recorded in Biblical Scriptures… And find great gain in this, experiencing the bliss, the joy to be adopted by God as His child….
The peace to find stable shelter at the Cross of the Lord, from God’s wrath!
I am still humanly sinning but thank GOD, I am quick to resume the FIGHT against my sinful nature, to repent and to be forgiven…
Slavery…..
Erik article is very well doing the talking about this subject.
Before reading it, I frnakly never even lived udner the impression the Bible, God promotes slavery….
This passage resonates when I am writing my comment …
◄ 1 Corinthians 7:21 ►
Live According to Your Calling
“…20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. 21Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. 22For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave.…”
I never think slavery is instituted, and commanded, orderedby God…
I have no diea where you come from, for holding this opinion.
Evangelical teachings…? I am sorry, I am not aware of them.
Have a good and meaningful sunday.
Christian57,
I hope you’re having a good Sunday too.
Slavery: I don’t think I ever said that the Bible promotes slavery. It’s been evangelical leaders, both past and present, who promote slavery, who have made statements that “Christianity and Slavery are from heaven; both are blessings to humanity; both are to be perpetuated to the end of time …. Because Slavery is right…and, too, because their Maker has decreed their bondage.” – Ebenezer Warren, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Macon, Georgia, 1861.
If Erik has an argument with anyone about the Bible promoting slavery, it’s with his own evangelical community. I believe yes, some people do say the Bible promotes slavery to discredit the Bible for whatever reason, but these evangelical fundamentalists really, really, REALLY believe the Bible promotes slavery. And not only slavery: there are very loud voices in the evangelical community now who are very outspoken against Interracial marriage and for racial segregation.
My own opinion is that Paul was ambivalent about slavery. He made statements against it and statements that clearly showed he accepted it was part of daily life: “Slaves, obey your Masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ.” Ephesians 6:9.
.
Slavery was to the Romans what it was to the plantation owners of the American South, an economic necessity. He wasn’t going to rock that boat, he had bigger fish to fry and even bigger psychological issues of his own to deal with..
As far as the rest, I don’t believe and never have believed we are born with, as you and Erik say, a “sin nature.” I think that’s a bit of brainwashing, a set up, an embedded religious dogma that is necessary in order to believe you need to repent and somehow be saved. If people believed we were born good, Christianity would collapse. I don’t need to be saved. I’m prefect the way God made me. I think it’s a sad way to live your life believing that you are a sinful creature. I don’t buy it.
Hi Gary, thank you for your explanation…
Evangelical leaders promoting slavery, outspoken against interracial Marriage, hmm…. I am not in position to interfere, but for sure, Scriptures do not support these beliefs, as far as I can tell…
“As far as the rest, I don’t believe and never have believed we are born with, as you and Erik say, a “sin nature.””
Hmm….. Gary.
A new born, needs constant care from the parents, normally the mother is enjoying yet enduring this task for “normally” 2 years with little to no rest … The child growing, this care can not be given 100% anymore and the natural reaction, human reflex of the baby, is to be frustrated and to “play God”, requesting this constant care, again, always…. Wanting to be and to stay the center of all attention, forever…
(This is a very accurate and inspired, parallel to draw… The Lord, center of all attention, hanged on the Cross… By the way!)
Parents must educate the child, to stop his reign… And obey, his parents for his own well being, personal, and social growth.
This illustrates very well, our human “sinful”, nature.
I think an easy synonym for sinful is simply, selfish.
Take care.
Christian57,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you, but I needed time to think about my response to you.
Of course a child needs constant care for the first few years of life. To say the child is “selfish” or sinful at one or two or three years old is to assume that the child has an intent to be selfish, is self-aware, or that the child is selfish on purpose. That’s just not true. What the child needs is to be taught socialization skills in order to function successfully in society. This has nothing to do with being born with a “sin nature.”
As a father who raised three boys I can assure you that no child is sinful or possesses a “sin nature” at birth or anytime thereafter unless they are born with a genetic defect that causes anti-social behavior. Certainly if a child is raised in a dysfunctional environment or is abused, they may grow up with severe behavioral problems. But psychosis is not sin. That’s Medieval thinking.
As for Paul, everything was about sin, and for him, at the top of his sin list, was sexual desire.
For all his theological brilliance in developing the Christian theology, of figuring out a way to incorporate both Jews and Gentiles into the Christian community, he was, unfortunately, a sexual deviant. By deviant, I don’t mean a pedophile or anything like that. But he clearly hated is own genitals, as he said in Romans 22-24:
“For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?”
If you hate your own genitals, then you clearly deviate from how normal people view their genitals. Did Paul hate his own genitals as his way of verbalizing his repressed sexual desire, or urges, towards women….or men…or both?
Clearly, he was disgusted by any type of sex, even heterosexual sex, which he said in 1 Corinthians 7:1 “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”
I must admit I had a tiny bit of guilt about being gay and how that reconciled with the Bible. But having read Paul very closely, especially Romans 1, I learned he was, like many geniuses, a tortured person with big psychological problems of self hatred. And although so many people take Paul’s words as gospel, I cannot. They are just the words of a gifted man fighting the demons in his head..
I don’t know if you hate your own genitals, or if you are disgusted by the thought of sex, heterosexual or otherwise, but I can see how people who are would gravitate to a literal interpretation of the Bible, because it gives those people validation that they are somehow living a Godly life. Unfortunately, as we have seen many times, those repressed, angelic people often end up on the nightly news… or worse.
Hello, Gary.
I assume it is safe to say, our Humankind History speaks for itself, our human nature is naturally inclined to cause harm, to destroy much, much more than it is prone to create and maintain good and right, which always require self-sacrifice, this actual “agape” love that IS God….
The pride of the “ego”, the greed, the lust for power…. From within, comes the evil.
Children… They have to be taught socialization, living in a community with an orde, a hierarchy and that is what GOD does stand for… I think the oldest taboo is incest, right…? Modern psychologists “find” the “natural orientation” of Oedipus complex within our human nature, little son “wanting” mother, and little “daughter” wanting father… Imagine God never spoke against “incest”…? The situation would be the same as it is with “homosexuality” today, with activists day in, day out equating their “condition” with God given heterosexual desire and Marriage, voicing their “right” to live and to “love” as they want, or “need”….
Anyway, it is just a matter of time, there is no limit to human greed and lust for power, disobeying God, doubting of God’s laws expressing His goodness for us, taking the place of GOD to set “new” rules according to their liking…. The original sin, over and over again.
Paul…. I do not read any hate for his genitals in his words, our body “members” are multiple, biblically the tongue speaking lies is the worst member AFAIK…
1 Corinthians 7, Pauls shares his personal opinion opening his message, then he share the Holy Spirit of God teachings on Marriage…
I can not see him unfit to be the messenger because of his own choice to remain celibate, (I think he was..? I do not care for his marital situation actually, irrelevant) a proper reason to dismiss the Godly message he is sharing….
But one thing, I am convinced homosexual parents CAN be good, fitting adoptive parents if they are CLEAR the father or mother is not present early on, forwarding their kids educaton to heteroseuxal, Godly standard for family and sexuality, NOT parents playing some twisted gender roles at their home, but indeed, to live as they are “two (adoptive) fathers” or “two (adoptive) mothers” only, clearly… I am really happy to know your adopted children have grown well and doing well for themselves, Gary. Really much!! glzad and congratulting you and your friend, sorry to say “your partner” is too much for me, one Chrisitian…
Please do not take offense,
You take care,
Regards.
dr kola kolawole, male psychiatrist from Hamilton Ontario had been convicted of second degree felony, forcible sexual abuse, and third degree felony forcible sodomy molestation of three juvenile patients at the ontario facility where he worked and sexual assault of a highschool girl in a park. He destroyed my daughters life, Merry Christmas
This is a very misinformed article which comes from a place of hatred and bigotry, but is claiming to be providing information.
1. Both straight and LGBT+ people can have more than one sexual partner in their lifetime, it’s not one of the other. Straight people cheat on each other, as do LGBT+ people, it’s ultimately the sign of an awful person, but has nothing to do with sexuality. In terms of having promiscuity, that can happen healthily in an open relationship if both parties are comfortable, and measures can be taken to mitigate STDs.
2. Straight people can catch STDs too, and straight couples also have the issue of unwanted pregnancy to navigate, which gay couples do not. There are issues and hurdles to be worked through which differ based on sexuality, but this does not mean any of them are wrong.
3. Completely unfounded, LGBT+ people are more likely to suffer from mental health issues, but that is because of people like you failing to accept them for who they are and therefore causing them to grow up feeling isolated and different. Homosexuality is not a choice, and support and love is what’s needed.
4. Complete rubbish.