Before I give the answer, I would like to analyze some passages from both the Old and New T.’s. Many people (mostly homosexuals and their atheist friends) claim that the Bible never says anything about marriage between one man and one woman. In fact, they usually bring examples of Old T. personages who had more than one wife, claiming that this is proof that God never intended marriage to be between one man and one woman. If you do not have a good understanding of the Bible then you may fall for this silly little tactic. Let’s take a look at what God says about marriage and then we will view the Old T. examples and see if they are being obedient to God or not. The best place to start, is always at the beginning so we will start with Genesis, the book of beginnings to see how marriage began and for whom it was created.
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion . . . So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion . . . (Gen. 1:26-28)
Here are a few facts about the first couple, the first marriage.
- They were both created by God precisely, to be male and female (no mistakes, the gender that you have is the gender that God intended)
- God had a purpose for the male and the female (they were to rule together)
- God created them to come together and reproduce (sex was God’s gift to man and woman, in the confines of marriage)
- Sex between husband and wife is blessed by God (any other kind of sex is not blessed, homo and hetero)
One may ask, “but where is the marriage?”. That is a good question. The answer is found in chapter 2 of Genesis. Genesis 2 is a more detailed account of the creation that took place in chapter 1 and not a separate creation account as some try to argue. Genesis 1 and 2 is done like the nightly news. At the beginning of the nightly news, the outline of the program is given and then the details follow, throughout the rest of the program. Genesis 1 is like the non detailed preview and Genesis 2 puts the meat on the bones. Let’s see if we can detect the marriage here.
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said,“This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
- God is the One who noticed that it is not good for man to be alone (man was satisfied and he was not looking for a partner for life)
- There is only one thing that can meet the man’s need, from God’s point of view, a woman (just 1, not more)
- God creates the woman to be exactly what the man needs (the way that she is created physically, emotionally, spiritually, and mentally)
- There is a clear process to marriage here:
- man leaves his father and mother (creating a new family unit)
- he first joins to his wife (the literal translation is cemented together, this is the bond of marriage)
- then the 2 become 1 flesh (through the act of sexual intercourse, marriage first, then sexual relations)
- the 2 were together and not ashamed (shame comes when sex comes before marriage, or when marriage is anything other than 1 man and 1 woman)
Someone may say, “but that was the Old T., we live under the New T. so things are different, right?”. That is a good point so let’s see what Jesus says on the topic, since He is the Mediator of the New Covenant or Testament.
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. (Matthew 19:4-5)
Some men came to Jesus with some questions about marriage and divorce and from Jesus’ response we see that He also reinforces what God said in the very beginning (i.e. marriage is between one man and one woman). Things have not changed under the New T. The Apostle Paul, who was directly taught by Jesus Christ, Himself, also spoke on marriage. Here is what he had to say.
Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. (I Corinthians 7:1-2)
Paul also teaches that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman and anything other than that is immorality (especially homosexual marriage).
The question then arises, “how is it that the Old T. personages were able to have more than 1 wife?”. God allowed them to have more than 1 wife but He did not bless it. They chose to be disobedient to God and take more than 1 wife. Look at the problems that each of the men who took more than 1 wife had. From Abraham to Solomon, all of them had major problems because of their extra wives. It was not God’s will yet they chose it and paid the price for it. So, just because the men chose to disobey, does not mean that God approved of their actions.
What about you my dear friend, have you been deceived by the modern teaching that says marriage can be anything other than between one man and one woman? If you, you need to repent, turn to God, and believe what He says and live accordingly. God help us remain faithful to the Word of God and not be deceived by the trickery of men.
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I agree with everything but wonder why God didn’t specifically command man to take only one wife and attach a punishment to go along, as He did in the law of Moses in other cases such as a women caught in adultery has to drink the bitter water and if she was unfaithful her stomach explodes . Why does the Bible leave an open door for the husband to go with another single women, either with or without marrying her and his wife can’t make him drink the bitter water?
He did not specifically need to leave the command. He set the standard from the very beginning, one man and one woman. He does command not to commit adultery (which is hard not to do when you are having sexual relations, as a man, with more than one woman).
The above text is from Leviticus chapter 20. You see, God does not have one standard for men and another for women, that is a common mistake that people make.
Read joeflo’s comment below. To claim that the Bible makes sense and is consistent is futile,
Who did Cain marry? there were no other godly created humans.. it makes little sense
Ah but you are mistaken. Adam and Eve had more than 3 children and not all of them were male. Please read Genesis 5 carefully.
The laws about incest were not given until much later when God gave the 10 Commandments along with the many other laws so brothers and sisters marrying was not a sin at the time. Cain married one of his sisters.
Yes (Erik Brewer), please read Genesis 5 carefully – “after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters.” (notice the after), but read it more carefully because right before that it specifically says Seth was born after Abel’s death (the parents even considering him God’s replacement/consolation for their loss). Don’t forget to read your “afters”, it’s the best way to get your chronology consistent! So all these children were had after the events in question, and none were mentioned before. The telling in Genesis strongly implies that Seth is the 3rd child, though possibly only the 3rd son (since women offspring aren’t that important in most biblical geneology, and aren’t always mentioned) with some daughters in between. It doesn’t specifically say, though there certainly couldn’t have been too many less than 130 years (Adam’s age when Seth was born) from the expulsion from the garden. Also, understanding cultural norms at the time, it seems likely any unmarried daughter would still live with her parents. Cain’s wife did not live with Adam and Eve, and so likely was not their daughter.
At the time of Abel’s murder, God tells Cain to leave, and he complains that if he does, anyone who finds him will kill him. Then after God assures him safety and marks him, he sets off and finds a wife in Nod east of Eden. Who were these people he expected to find him? Would his own family members want to kill him (certainly not unprecedented given the circumstances – but still a strange fear to have)? And Nod appears to be a named and settled city (though details are sparse) somewhere far off. Where did Nod come from and why are there people there?
Go back and read Genesis 1 and 2. There are 2 differing creation accounts. In one, all men and women were created at once, after and in the same way as all animals. In the other, Adam was created uniquely with dirt/clay, and then God tries to give him companions with animals, and finally with the creation of Eve. This is either an inconsistency, or two separate creation events commonly misinterpreted as one. Most faithful folk claim the bible describes the one, true way it all happened. Lets assume they are right and there is no inconsistency in the narrative.
I consider the Bible a combination of metaphor, mythology, and history written by humans, and its writing style has a lot of narrative, poetic, and metaphorical similarities to other cultures’ great epic and religious works. As such, it’s not necessarily too important to me exactly how the stories went down, but by far the most consistent interpretation of the bible I have ever read through (and I like reading everyone’s interpretations) involved two creation events – one in which mankind was made (Genesis 1), and another in which Adam was made as God’s special man, and the first he gives any “law” to, even if it’s just one, with Eve following as his companion (Genesis 2). This interpretation considers the other people living at the time of Cain and Abel simply as members/descendants of the other creation event for all humanity except the line of Adam and Eve.
If you like reading biblical interpretations, check out http://www.thename.ph. I’m not pushing anything myself, but it is one of the most consistent interpretations of the Bible I have ever read, and it basically turns christianity on its head (with that specific intent) by asserting that Jesus failed in his mission to the Isrelites/Jews and his death was a punishment. It goes much further than that, and backs it all up with the OT and Revelations (the only book from the NT, according to this interpretation, that is a legitimate message from God). It’s long and repetitive, but the “Greatest Deception” article makes many of the main points without dragging on too long. Most biblical arguments are ones I can tear apart (or at least show the bias and misreading involved) in 10 minutes with a copy of the bible and an internet connection (like Erik Brewer’s selective reading of Genesis). The “thename.ph” website has a few biblical quotes taken out of context, but nothing that dismantles their main points.
Regardless, good question about Cain’s wife. You can read the bible however you want when it isn’t specific, and the answer to your question certainly isn’t answered definitively or directly by the bible. But I would say that the dual creation event is the best answer to your question I’ve ever heard.
Joeflo: One thing you must understand about the Bible is that when it comes to genealogies, only the most significant names are mentioned (i.e the “firstborn”, whether physically or preeminently). Adam lived to be 930 years old. He most definitely had many sons and daughters. Cain, Abel and Seth were not the only ones.
Even romney not speaking against gay marriage……..his sons doubtless have rich, gay friends who are for marriage——–
as everything in America, it’s all about money and the rich, you should know that as pubs
and the rich have turned supporters of gay rights/marriage, as so many of their children are gay——-and rich
it marks a dramatic change among some of the top Republican donors and opinion-makers, who are supporting same-sex marriage in state-based gay legislative and legal fights, even as the official GOP platform will remain centered on traditional marriage.
“Most Republican Party leaders seem to have lost the stomach for this fight,” said Dan Schnur of the Jesse M. Unruh Institute of Politics at the University of Southern California.
“Some of that results (from) the number of large-scale donors who support same-sex marriage, some of it’s a result in an increasing number of party leaders who support same-sex marriage, and a lot of it is public opinion polling which shows a shift in the way voters feel about same-sex marriage,” he added.
his ways is not our ways, he is a merciful God and bless only those he decides to bless with no condition. look at the case of the thief that was nailed with christ and how he was blessed.touching the conscience of sinner makes sense than inflicting physical punishment. the bible is the book of life and he has given answers to all our doubt.
The Bible clearly talks of sexual relation between a man and a woman BUT NOT sexual relation between a woman and a woman nor sexual relation between a man and a man. So it is already an answer to the homosexuals
When did atual marriage ceromonies start?
In Genesis 1 and 2, we are not given the details of a formal ceremony. We are just told that they are joined together and then become one flesh (something other than the sexual act joins them), they become one flesh (sex) after they have been joined together.
“Coming together and becoming one flesh” is a state of mind. When two people are in love with each other and know each other so well that they are finishing each others sentences, they are becoming one spiritually..
You make a strong argument Erik, but I fail to see through your description of Genesis 2 how that “is” marriage. The word marriage is not used. There is a metaphorical allusion which correlates to a strong relationship. I see this strength n long-time male/male relationships too.
As far as your use of Adam and Eve as the example of what God wanted for all of us disagree with that too. This is the first couple. Only a heterosexual couple could multiply. If the first couple was gay there would be no one n God’s kingdom on Earth. This does not exclude the possibility of other sexual orientations. It only speaks to the First couple.
Using your argument you could say that there should only be one race, that being the race of Adam and Eve, and I don’t think you want to say that.
It is much deeper than that. It is mind, body, and soul. The word that is used in the original is “Basar” and it even goes so far as having the same blood. Two men cannot become one flesh (as mentioned in Gen.2). The same with 2 women. The only two people who can become one are a man and a woman. Many races can come from one original, I believe Biology calls it “variation within a species”.
In Genesis 2, the the word we use “marriage” is not used, just like the word “homosexual” is not used. God explains the concept because He knows how we change the meaning of our words. He explains the process so that the changing of words does not matter.
This answer is ingards to the dulling billboards. Interesting, Mr. Tony Scott does bring out the Bibles truth about forgiveness,love and eternal life. But he doesn’t go far enough. To the homosexual Christians on marriage are dead wrong and to all of the others; in the Bible it states very clearly that both God the Father, Christ and Paul state “one man and woman”. Go get a Bible and please look up Genesis 2: 24 and Matthew 19: 5 and 1 Corinthians7: 2-3. These three areas are aboslutely clear as to “one man and one woman”. To all homosexuals that read this note if you cannot except the above your in a wold of hurt because it is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit’s word and when comes eternity time all man will be judged according to the Bible.
I’ll be darned! You people do not want the truth you want to cuddle these people. You are afaried ot the truth of Bible, yourselves. But it makes do diffence it my note gets published the truth of the Bible stands forever. And like it was printed out for all to read for themselves, so will it be for eternaty when all will be made known. Are you to be on the side of those without Christ when these souls that play Christian in a burning hell that rejects Christ? If you people can not stand the heat of man you certainly will not stand Christ,s return in glory when all man will bow before him.
Jesus wasn’t married was he? He had male followers. He loved one more that the others.
Jesus is engaged to His bride, the Church. One day there will be a wedding. Do you see what homosexual propaganda has done? Men can no longer love each other without being called “gay”.
Genesis 2 only explains the birth of the Adam and Eve. Then what happend afterwards. How their kids married with each other. Marriages among brothers and sisters. Bible explains the story from the beginning. By now way you can deduce from geneis2 that marriage is between one man and one woman. At that time there was only one man and one woman. Genesis 2 is simply not courtable. Afterward, when population increased, more women were allowed to one man and thats is the reason those prophets had more wives. They didn’t violate anything. However, it was only in Islam that limited it max of four wives. However, it clearly Quran clearly said that one is better than more( upto four).
Mr. Erik, hope you doing fine. With reference to the context, Can you explain the following verses1 & 2 reading with point 3, pleas :
1.And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.( Genesis 21:21, KJV)
2. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. ( Deuteronomy 33:2, KJV)
3. Access link and read this part of the history now available at: http://www.alislam.org/library/history/chap13.htm
Its nice to see you promoting conservative values promoting the biblical concept of marraige. take care
i’m interested in a woman that i think i desire ( is this a sin, that i will burn in hell for ). can you please help with your answer ) i’m not married. and wonder if should pray to remove these thoughts from my mind.
If you are interested her and you feel that these feelings are from the Lord then you need to invite the woman to a nice restaurant and propose to her (if she is a born again Christian and you are too). If she accepts then you need to go to the pastor and share your desires with him as well as with her family and yours. If all agree and you receive their blessings then you need to prepare to have a wedding very soon. Before the wedding, you need to study Marriage without Regrets together with the girl and a teacher (preferably a pastor or leader in your church).
If you do not feel that this girl is not sent from God, then you need to pray and ask God to remove these feelings.
If the girl does not accept your proposal, then you need to respect her answer and pray that God will bless her and prepare her for her future husband and trust God that He will bring you a wife at the right time.
It’s interesting that the article says “one man, one woman,” because the Bible, in fact, refers to polygamous marriages as marriage. The “one man, one woman” principle is violated as early as Genesis 4:19.
Did you even read the article or did you just latch on to the title? Please be honest! The article explains the difference between God’s plan and man’s practice. The fact that man did not follow God’s plan does not change God’s original plan. Your latched on to man’s practice and then tried to point out what God does and does not teach. Your logic is flawed.
Certainly, it was man’s practice, but the Bible describes multiple wives. It doesn’t say Abraham had a wife, Sarah, and then a mistress, Hagar. No, it describes them both as wives. So, unless you are saying that Scripture was wrong to describe them both as wives, that was a three way marriage.
So again, man’s practice is not the same as God’s plan. Plus look at the problems Abraham had because of his 2 wives. The Bible clearly teaches marriage is between one man and one woman.
Exodus 21:10 specifically lays out the rule for taking second wife: “If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.” That is God’s direct rule. You can have more than one so long as you don’t diminish what she’s entitled to.
God protect the woman in this case, even though this is not according to His original plan of one man and one woman. The men were taking advantage of the women and God intervened to protect the woman. Again, this is not a teaching that marriage is to be between more than 2 people. God set the standard in Genesis 1 and 2. Man deviated on his own free will. God intervened on behalf of the potential victim in the situation.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17 lays out the inheritance rules in a polygamous family:
“If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn.
But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.”
So what is your point? This does not teach that marriage is to be between more than 2 people. From the beginning, God set the standard of one man and one woman. Man chose not to obey. It is like slavery, God does not promote or condone slavery but He does give teachings to protect the slave in a society where people practiced it.
“So again, man’s practice is not the same as God’s plan.”
You miss my point. I didn’t claim that it was God’s plan. The Bible doesn’t say what God thought of Abraham’s marriage, either way. It DOES, however, refer to both Sarah and Hagar as wives. That’s the only point I’m making. Perhaps this is a marriage that God disapproves of, but it, according to the Bible’s own description, a marriage.
“Plus look at the problems Abraham had because of his 2 wives.”
Where is it written that that Abraham’s problems are because God disapproved of his wives? It doesn’t say that. I can just as easily say that Adam’s fall was a result of having only one wife.
Look at how Abraham got his second wife (while being married to his first). He went against God’s plan and God’s promises. He was talked into doing it by his wife. Like Adam, he listened to his wife over the Word of God. As a result, there was strife in his family (between his 2 wives). The victim (the second wife) was defended by God. Again, we see man’s disobedience hurting his fellow man (woman in this case). God being rich in mercy and grace steps in and defends the victim (Hagar). The fighting that we see today between the Jews and Muslims today can be traced back to this moment of disobedience (a man takes more than one wife).
Again, you miss the point. I am not claiming that God liked the marriage. I’m only pointing out that it IS a marriage. The Bible clearly refers to Hagar and Sarah as wives. That means polygamy is within the definition of marriage. My point isn’t about morality, it’s just definitional.
Also, I repeat my claim that Adam fell because he had one wife. It follows the same logic chain as your argument. See what happened to Adam after he got with Eve? Correlation is not the same as causation.
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I personally think that you are all wrong, if you do not live by the bible, the whole bible then you will surely burn in hell, you cant just take out certain parts and make them sound like you want them to sound and think that you will surely go to heaven, it doesnt work that way, from what i have read in this article, from what you stated it doesnt say anything about marriage, it says that the man and woman will become 1 flesh, it didnt say they were married, in fact at first who could have married them, they more or less couldnt have been married because they were all related, but they were the first people that started all mankind, also how do we get people of different colors if we all started as one couple, and oh by the way how many people do you know that lives by the bible, the whole bible, I can answer that for you, NO ONE
You have the right to your own opinion (not your own truth, that is a different topic).
Through faith in Christ and repentance, a person is saved from the fires of hell. The stubborn who do not want to accept God’s gift in Jesus Christ, will be the ones who will “burn” as you say.
Who has been cherry picking from the Bible? Do you have any evidence or something other than your ‘opinion”?
Reread Genesis 2 again. I explained where the marriage idea comes from in this text. You chose to ignore it. Being ignorant on purpose is your right.
Why could they not have married? They did not have the same mother and father. Plus, the command about not marrying a close relative (like brother and sister) did not come for about 2,000 years later (when God gave the Law to Moses to explain to the people).
All of the races today can be traced back to Noah’s children who can then be traced back to Adam and Eve so you really have nothing but your opinion.
Then I guess every portly person in your church is going to hell for their continuing gluttony. Doesn’t matter if they repent everyday if they just keep shoving pork chops down their gullet
A person can be chubby without actually being a glutton. Metabolism has a lot to do with it. I know chubby people who actually eat less than a lot of skinny people with high metabolisms. I assume you write this because you condemn Christians of being “judgmental” towards other sinners like the sexually immoral. Are you not acting as a hypocrite by judging chubby people without knowing the situation?
Do you remember when they tried to build the tower to heaven? That is when God made them different colors and language so they could not understand each other!!
Also it states in the bible: love thy neighbor as thyself, that doesnt mean the people that live beside you, it means everyone, it also states judge not ye be judged, that more or less means not to hate someone else for how they live or who they are or for what they want, if you cant love thy neighbor and you cant stop judging him for what he believes then you will surely go to hell
If I truly love my neighbor yet do not share with him the dangers of the homosexual lifestyle, then how can I call that love?
If you would read the passage you quote about judging (Matthew 7:1-6) you will notice that Jesus explains 2 types of judging, judging done correctly and judging done incorrectly. He even goes on to “judge” later when He shares who you should not share with. Incorrect judgment is when you tell someone not to do something and then you turn around and do it yourself. I am not homosexual and I do not practice sexual immorality so therefore, I have the mandate to help my neighbor.
Wow. What an excellent reply,Erik. Well said. It is true…how can we love if we watch and say nothing of these people’s perverse behavior? Thing is, it’s NOT natural at all! It’s demonic influence!! That’s why a man and a man, and a woman and woman fail to have the same closeness, and oneness as a man and woman joined in marriage. It’s not “hating” either. It’s God’s truth, as you say Terry, we cannot cherry pick what scriptures we like and do not like. We must just want Gods truth above our own opinions and desires. And we don’t get to heaven by living by the law. We are under grace, those who are in the Lambs book of Life. Sadly, this is what Jesus meant when He said MANY in that day, will say, Lord, Lord, didnt we do this in your name, etc He will simply say I never knew you. Depart from me you who work iniquity.
Also if you are a preacher or man of cloth and you teach hate in your church. whether it be against gay people or people of color of people of other religions, then you are considered a bigot and for thart you will surely burn in hell, teach love for everyone
Teaching the reality of the homosexual lifestyle is not teaching hate. Hate would be knowing the dangers of the homosexual lifestyle and then not telling people the truth about it would be hate.
Please do not confuse race (not a choice) with homosexuality (sexual immorality) a clear choice. They are two different things.
“Judge not, that you be not judged.For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and twith the measure you use it will be measured to you.”
God loves the sinner. He hates the sin. No matter what the sin is. None is worse than any other. If we offend in one area, we are guilty of all. It’s not humanly possible to obey the commandments…if it was Jesus would not have come to earth and lived a sinless life, then gave Himself up as a fragrant offering for the world’s sin. Did John not say, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. It was a pretty big deal…..the Son of God walking as a man upon the earth. He left His glory, and was God and man at the same time. Jesus fullfilled the prophesies, and paid the sin debt. He yelled IT IS FINISHED! Right before He died. The temple offering slab was split in two, the veil that separated the holy of holies was rent from TOP to bottom, showing that Jesus had made a path for all of mankind to come before God. What an amazing story isn’t it, Terry? It’s my prayer, that you will trust in Jesus today. Not in your works. The bible says, our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God Almighty. We can not stand in His presence we would die instantly. Our God is a MERCIFUL God, but also a righteous God. The sin debt must be paid….and man cannot pay his own price. All we can do, is say yes to Jesus gift of life. I pray you would from today, turn from works, as you saying following the law. and instead rely on grace. Rely on your relationship with Jesus. Jesus has so many fans and few followers. Remember also, the Jews constantly kept trying to get the gentiles to get circumcised and said they must follow the law commandments of Moses flesh Paul said, silly galatians, how will you finish in the flesh what you have begun in the spirit. (Galatians 5 i think)The reason we are born again is because Jesus wipes our slate clean, thus rejuvenating our soul inside! Our bodies then become a temple for the Holy Spirit. Do you see what I mean? I do hope so..man is imperfect, Jesus is perfect. As He is God the Son. Praise be to HIS name ALONE for our salvation! For our victory over sin now we no longer need to drown in it once we accept Him. How marvelous is that? Forget this silly argument, and instead embrace God’s grace!! You can KNOW you have Eternal life, only through Jesus, never works. Trust in Jesus you wont be sorry!! =)
Nevermind that the bible was WRITTEN BY MEN influenced by the social times they were living in, not by God himself.
Nice try, you are correct, the Bible was written by the hands of men, but they were moved (inspired) by God. They wrote exactly what God wanted them to write. The Bible is relevant today because human nature has not changed one bit.
So got WANTED them to write that Pi =3 and that bats are birds, or that there were unicorns?
God WANTED man to write that it’s ok to beat a slave as long as you don’t kill him?
Gid WANTED man to write hundreds of inaccuracies? Why? Just for fun?
These are simple fallacies that have been proven false many times over. Get some new material.
Erik, they’ve only been “proven false” by deliberately misinterpreting text, twisting word meanings, and downright lying. You should get some new material.
The Bible was written by people relaying stories of the happenings in their day and time, and portraying their own understanding of what they thought God wanted them to say . From the first man created to the first woman created, each individual has free well and free thinking ability to jade whatever topic being written about by one’s own understanding and interpretation. To say that each wrote exactly what God wanted them to say only shows what little critical thinking ability you possess to make such a claim. Haven’t you ever tried that parlor game where one whispers a few words and by the time it makes it around the whole room, it has been changed. That is a common fact and it also permeates the entire writings of the Bible. The Bible is a great tool among other books to help define and understand a way of life but it is my humble opinion that NO ONE has ever lived solely and totally by the teachings of the Bible. It is a physical impossibility. The one thing that Jesus preached was a personal relationship with Him, and to do that, one does not need the Bible and one does not need to be told by any man what Jesus expects of each of us. Even the preachers of Christianity fall prey to the temptations of one’s own desires so I am not going to be told by someone who is morally degenerate how to live my life. As long as I can face myself every day knowing I have done my best not to cheat, steal, lie, mistreat, break laws or otherwise act in a non-loving way, then I am fine with who I am. I don’t need the self-sanctified small thinkers to tell me what to do.
Lara, here’s an interesting read for you about this, For instance, did you know that the odds of your being injured by a lightning strike on any given day are only 1 in 250 million, but over the average lifetime are 1 in 9,100? In contrast, the odds that the average citizen of Washington, D.C. will get “plugged, stabbed, poisoned, or bludgeoned to death” in the course of a year are only 1 in 1,681!
One in 10 Americans read the Bible daily. One in two eat out somewhere every single day of the week–1 in 20 at McDonald’s. In Sweden, 40 of every one hundred persons are senior citizens; in Fiji, only 1 in 50. And here’s one that really amazed me: 1 in every 24 Americans has membership in the National Geographic Society. I guess it figures, though, because I noticed recently that a staggering 9,975,558 average copies of the National Geographic magazine are printed by the Society every month (including those intended for international distribution).
If you still happen to be unconvinced that the baby born in Bethlehem 2000 years ago was anything more than just an ordinary human baby, let me challenge you with a few of “the odds” in that regard.
To begin with, did you know that the Old Testament prophet Micah, writing circa 700 B.C., out of the hundreds and hundreds of cities in the scores and scores of nations in existence all over the world even in those days, designated Bethlehem of Judea as the birthplace of the Messiah (Micah 5:2)?
And that at about the same time, Isaiah (7:14) said that the Christ would be born of a virgin?
Or that a prophecy made in 1012 B.C. specified that the Messiah’s hands and feet would eventually be pierced–a clear reference to death by crucifixion–800 years before the Romans ever even instituted crucifixion as a form of capital punishment!
Malachi 3:1, penned in about 425 B.C., specified that the Messiah would be contemporary with the temple in Jerusalem–a temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D. and has never been rebuilt.
Well, if all this impresses you even a little bit, you ought to go compare Zechariah 11:11-13 (written over 500 years before Christ) to Matthew 27:3-10 (written some 25-30 years after Christ). Only coincidence?
A number of years ago, Peter W. Stoner and Robert C. Newman wrote a book entitled Science Speaks. The book was based on the science of probability and vouched for by the American Scientific Affiliation. It set out the odds of any one man in all of history fulfilling even only eight of the 60 major prophecies (and 270 ramifications) fulfilled by the life of Christ.
The probability that Jesus of Nazareth could have fulfilled even eight such prophecies would be only 1 in 1017. That’s 1 in 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000.
Stoner claims that that many silver dollars would be enough to cover the face of the entire state of Texas two feet deep. Now I’ve been to Texas. I’ve driven for days to get across Texas. Texas is a very big state. Who in his right mind would suppose that a blindfolded man, heading out of Dallas by foot in any direction, would be able, on his very first attempt, to pick up one specifically marked silver dollar out of 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000?
One March several years ago I received a paper from United States Senate Chaplain Richard Halverson. In it he wrote:
“The fact is, the birth, crucifixion, and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ are celebrated worldwide by folk of every race, language, and color, every year. And believing in Jesus, they have been delivered from the most evil, disastrous, frustrating, debilitating habits and life forms possible. The real problem with Jesus Christ is not that folk can’t believe in Him–but that they won’t believe in Him.”
e
The ‘prophecies’ you list have nothing to do with the coming of the Christ. Especially Isaiah. The Servant Songs describe the suffering servant as the entire nation of Israel. (It says so right in the beginnning)
Also, the passage you refer to in Isaiah stating the savior would be born of a virgin doesn’t say that at all. The Hebrew word is ‘ha’alma’ which simply means ‘young woman’ not ‘virgin’.
And that particular savior was already born of that ‘ha’alma’. Says so later in the bible during the reign of king Azazz.
In that time during Israel, a young woman (unmarried) was a virgin.
So you’re saying that the words for a young unmarried woman and a virgin are interchangeable. Not everyone would agree with that. Your arguments for several points in other posts rely on exactly the correct word being used in scripture – which, after all, is divinely inspired, no?
But if these words are now interchangeable according to you, which other words are as well?
Len,
20-30 years ago, in the U.S. marriage was clearly defined as a man and a woman enter into a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law.
Marriage = Man and Woman
Wasn’t until this generation that the definition was modified to include same sex. I believe the definition today is inaccurate regarding “same sex marriage” and should simply be noted as a coupling of same sex individuals, rather than marriage. But, our society in the U.S. has become less concerned with correctness and is spending more of its’ time on making sure no one is offended.
To your point about “virgin” and “young woman” – they were interchangeable at the time of the writing.
Obviously, today the two wouldn’t be interchangeable. Just need to apply a frame of reference.
God bless you Erik for standing for my Lord and Savior. Regardless of the technical definition (Merriam Webster Dictionary), I trust that my God is bigger than any post on here and Erik is correct. While we have commonalities, such as disobeying God, our goal is to be honorable to our Father by sharing His truths, interpret as you so choose. The scripture is very clear, God breathed, and nothing shall be added nor taken away from it. If one really wants to make a point (cause they don’t trust Jesus), why not marry a horse, cow or pig? Actually, I love my cat so much, what would one think about me marrying and having sexual intercourse with my cat. Too far fetched? I am of the believe that Christians need to stop acting like Peter, and STAND UP for Jesus Christ. Everywhere I turn, I hear, violation of my religious beliefs, everywhere, and I am so sick of it, that I am going to put on the Armour of God, and fight the battle for the One who was crucified for me. I am very sick and soon may head towards the glorious heavens and I am confident that there will come a time when EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue confess that HE IS LORD!!. Please do not argue about “the Bible.” It’s not about “the Bible”, it’s about God and His love for us. Read the entire Bible as a novel and you will see it has some quite amazing story lines too perfect to explain (sorta like the universe). Be open minded. I have the faith that God will take care of the rest. Keep in mind, what if your thoughts are wrong? If my thoughts, beliefs are wrong, I have lost nothing, but if right, have gained everything. Are you able to say the same? Either you are a Christ follower and believe ALL of the Bible and strive to do God’s will on earth as it in Heaven. What is God’s will, that ALL should come to repentance. I think that has always been His will. Give 2 Peter 3 a read. Being a Christ follower means commitment and total surrender to Jesus Christ. I am looking forward to the wedding ceremony and reunion with He who holds all. Peace.
‘ If my thoughts, beliefs are wrong, I have lost nothing, but if right, have gained everything’
That’s Pascal’s wager. So what if you’re wrong about WHICH god you are worshiping? There’s 3500 gods worshipped in the world today. Each has the same validity as the next. What if you’re wrong?
When two “faiths” or “gods” have opposing teachings, they cannot both be right, that would be illogical. The Hindus have over 350 million “gods” in their religion so I think that you undershot the number just a bit with 3,500.
Erik, nice try at deflection, you still didn’t answer the question “What if you’re wrong?” about your god.
When two “faiths” or “gods” have opposing teachings, they cannot both be right,
That is an answer, not a deflection.
I like your style Len… I know I’ve done the devil’s advocate position several times… What if this, what if that?!?
It’s called faith. For those that believe, that empty spot that fills with doubt, fear, regret, shame is replaced by God’s promise. God’s promise is enough to sustain people through this life into the next.
So, I put the same question back to you Len. What if you are wrong? That’s a pretty big wager IF you are wrong.
I pray that your interest in checking out this site is that you are “searching”. That is a great starting point. Believe me, I have asked tons of questions over the years. I truly hope you find what you are looking for.
Erik, you replied to me saying
That may be an answer to something, but not to the question that was asked. It is a deflection, because the question asked was “What if you’re wrong?” So Erik, what if you’re wrong about which god to serve? Why your god?
Here is what I responded to:
They cannot all be equally valid because they all contradict themselves on major points. There is no “what if” here, just a known fact.
What if I am wrong? About what? The fact that all of God’s promises and prophecies have been fulfilled exactly as His promised? Or the fact that Israel still exists even though as a people they have been pushed to the brink of extinction by almost every world power in history? Or the fact that God transformed my lifestyle from a slave to sin to a person who now says no to sin and temptation, from a person who was self-centered and egotistical to a person who now loves and serves his neighbor as himself? There are too many proof positives to be wrong about. BTW, I did not use the “what if you are wrong argument”.
Charles, unless some evidence is presented that is actually more than just superstition, hearsay, plus smoke and mirrors I see no reason to change my position. When I was a practicing and preaching Christian I believed fervently. Until I really started to think about what I was reading in the bible, what I was hearing in church, and even what I was preaching myself. When I eventually sat down and thought about it, I realised that it was all held up like a conjuror spinning several plates in the air. It’s a conjuring trick. It looks like magic until you look closely.
So, searching? No. Having fun baiting (and even debating) Erik from time to time? Yes 🙂 [And Erik, I know I owe you some replies from old posts – still on my to do list.]
I’d hazard a guess that a supposed god who created everything and is omni-everything (-present, -scient, -powerful, -benevolent, etc) would be able to provide some sort of evidence that can stand scrutiny. If not, then to quote the Hulk: “puny god”.
Erik, it seems that multiple wives was not considered disobedience to God. In many Bible stories we find God GAVE multiple wives to Kings and Patriarchs.
Did you even read the article? I explained that yes, it is true, in the Bible there are men of God who took multiple wives yet they all suffered for it. They did not follow God’s original plan and there were negative consequences as a result (see Abraham, David, Solomon, etc.)
YES! I did read the article. Did you forget what you wrote?
You wrote that they took more than one wife in disobedience to God.
You wrote that God did not bless these marriages.
I pointed out to you that God GAVE multiple wives to some Kings and Patriarchs. Please explain how this would be disobedience to God or how this would not be blessed by God if the wives were given by God to these men?
I am seeking thoughts on this matter, not stirring trouble.
Sorry if I came off a little harsh. I have been dealing with a lot of critics for a while and have discovered that the majority of them do not actually read the articles. They just read the title and then move on to their memorized “talking points” without any critical analysis at all.
I am glad that you actually read and are thinking through your arguments.
God blessed Abraham, David, and Solomon but look at the consequences of their actions. Look at the problems that they faced because of the fact that they took more than one wife. Read Genesis 16 and see what happened to Abraham’s family (immediate consequences) and the extended consequences that the Jews face today (the Arab Muslims in the Middle East). Abraham was blessed by God and he has become a blessing to the entire world through Jesus Christ yet there are still consequences of his disobedience. So yes, there are cases of multiple wives in the OT yet that was never God’s plan. He revealed His plan in the beginning, one man and one woman. Those who deviated from the plan had to pay the price.
Ok, so when my religion accepts homosexuality and marriage between same sex partners, then you’re telling me that your religion is better than mine, and that mine should not be recognized because of yours. That seems backwards in regards to several morals and statements that lie within your own bible and with the purpose of the foundation of this country.
It is not a debate about “your religion or mine”. That is the root of the problem. You follow your own religion. I am following the religion that God left for man to follow to gain access to Him. You do not have to follow God’s way, you can follow your own. That was what Satan did and that has been he way for most of human history, make up your own religion and follow it. Be your own God (see Genesis 3). You are free to believe whatever you want but just because you believe something that does not make it right.
Nicely put Erik – it also applies to you 😉
I agree, the Bible is not true because I believe It. I believe It because it is true.
You believe the bible because you believe it’s true. That still doesn’t make it true. The bible being true in your eyes is still a matter of your belief.
I have verified the claims of the Bible objectively. I have come to the conclusion that it the claims are backed up with evidence. It has nothing to do with “blind” faith. Faith is being convinced (by seeing and seeking to understand) of and by the evidence.
You have passed whatever you consider as evidence through whatever filters your life has given you (familial, societal, cultural, political, and whatever other …-al) – as we all do. And you have reached the conclusion that the bible passes whatever test you define as being necessary to be true. That’s fine.
But the word you should be using is not “objectively”, it’s “subjectively”. Because you have no other standard to measure it against. No-one does. Unless you already accept the bible’s “truth”, while trying to prove it. But begging the question doesn’t make the bible true, it’s just a way for you to work round to accepting what you want to accept, regardless of actual evidence.
Oh, and I thought that faith was the hope of things unseen 😉
“Hope” in the Biblical language does not mean that you desire something but are not sure if you will get it or not (that is the way that we use hope today, “I hope that it will all workout in the end”). Hope literally means that you know the outcome will come about, you just have to go through the process (wait) until that time arrives. So hope and faith go hand in hand, you know that God has promised it and it will happen as He said, you just have to go through the process (wait) until that time arrives and the promise is fulfilled.
When I began to study the Bible, I did not believe that it was true. I was an atheist. I thought it was just a book of fairy tales that we teach our children. You assume way too much (as usual).
And what about all the things God created but didn’t mention in your post, such as hermaphrodites. Is that one man and one woman? Can a hermaphrodite marry itself?
Would you look at a junk yard and proclaim that “this must be how cars are made and what they are made to be”? NO way. The same thing is true with this world. God created it perfect but man messed it up by sinning. Therefore, do not blame God for man’s sins.
So, hermaphrodites are junk? Such compassion….
That would be your conclusion, not mine and definitely not God’s.
With your logic, those who have cancer would also be considered “junk”.
Do you know what a hermaphrodite or intersex person is? These are people who are born with variations of both male and female genitalia. I was following your arguments, though I do not agree, until this point. Please explain you metaphor because it sounded horribly offensive to me as if you were comparing human beings born differently to “junk” and old abandoned cars.
The biological mistakes (deformed genes) are a direct result of the fall of mankind into sin. The first generation of mankind was perfect. The defects were passed on to the 2nd, 3rd, etc. When there is a mistake in the gene structure, it is because of sin. If there would never have been any sin, there would never be any defects. The defects are a direct result of sin. So again, one cannot blame God for the birth defects. It is mankind’s fault because of sin.
But the sins of the father are not born by the son. The defects in man could not be due to sin. You are mistaken.
(Ezekiel 18:20) – “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
Here’s a little laugh for a Thursday morning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw
Although I would understand if you removed it 😉
thats funny len i have passed it on
Do you make sure not to mix fibers in your clothing? I believe this is also an abomination.
Cherry-picking verses out of context has never been a convincing argument.
Is there any truth to the statement tht god has created his ideal husband or wife for you??? with the bckground of man and woman becoming one flesh I feel there is truth to the statement do explain thank you
Yes, if you are a man and obedient to God then He will bring the woman He created for you to you. If you are a woman and obey God, then He will direct you to the man He created you for. The third option would be that God created you to be single and you must be content with that as well.
One man one husband is not what God wants, this plan.
The bible states it is better to not marry. That a man should not divorce his wife if he does marry.
I do not understand why people are so against gay people. Why?
Why not promote what the Bible says?
Instead of pointing out others sin….
Let Christ be first and do not divorce if you do marry.
The Bible also says to look at your own sin before you point out others sin….
Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
It sounds like you have an excellent grasp of what your Bible says. I am all for you living by those words. I don’t wish to, though.
And you can choose not to live by the Bible, but that does not free you of the consequences of your actions and the direct impact your actions have on others.
I read your article, and I find the argument very convincing. But here are my views that I would like to discuss.
The “foundation” of marriage has changed throughout the Bible and throughout human history and church history. I like that you bring u the counter argument about Jewish men having more than one wife in the Old Testament, but I do not agree with your assumption that they were punished by God for taking more than one wife. I do not get that interpretation when I read scripture. In fact, I agree with someone above when they say that God gave these holy men there other wives.
Also, the same Hebrew word translated to “cleave” in Genesis 2:24, “man will cleave to his wife,” was translated into “clave or “clung to” in Ruth 1:14 when it says that Ruth clung to Naomi. The Hebrew word is “Dabaq,” which means “be united.” Ruth and Naomi were united, and Naomi even breast fed Ruth’s child.
Also, the Bible has been used to declare interracial marriage as “immoral,” which one could very well argue as you have done, when one looks at the base level of the English translations of the Bible without looking into further context and the history of the translations.
There are 6 verses in the Bible that have been used to oppress homosexuals. All six use words that could have also been translated towards men who bought male prostitutes, the male prostitutes themselves, gay orgies, and other various non consensual non monogamous male on male sexual encounters. Those 6 verses do not speak about homosexual loving relationships. In fact, any Bible that translates the Greek words “arsenokoites” or “malakos” into homosexual isn’t a completely ignorant translation as the word homosexual was not even used until the 1900s. Again not monogamous, loving consensual same-sex relationships.
In fact, in Matthew 8, Jesus healed the “servant” of a Greek centurion and blessed the two mens relationship. This Greek centurion came to Jesus pleading, begging, and on his knees for help. Back then, a servant or slave was property. If they were sick or dying, that was not typically their masters concern. The Greek word that we translated into “servant” was “Pais.” That word was also used in Greek to mean the younger partner in a same-sex relationship.
And don’t get me started on David and Jonathan.
Bottom line, please don’t preach your personal faith in God as the only denomination and interpretation that works. I’m not telling you that what I believe is what you should believe, and I would never vote for a law to make you believe or live by my beliefs either. That would be offensive and closed minded.
God bless you!
Aaron: To cleave to someone does not mean to have sex with them or to be intimate with them. A son cleaves to his mother. In Genesis, when it says that a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife it is then followed by a comma and the word “and” denoting two separate things. “Cleave to his wife, and become one flesh”. But the two words do not mean the same thing (i.e. sexual relations). Naomi was a devout Jew. I doubt she would break OT laws concerning homosexuality. Ruth was also called a “virtuous woman”. If she and Naomi were committing sin before God, Ruth would not be called “virtuous”. For Ruth’s abandonment of her people’s false gods and turning to the one True God, Yahweh, she was blessed by becoming a part of the Messianic lineage. She is the great grandmother of David!
And like Erik has already tried to explain, the men who had multiple wives were not blessed because of those relationships. Multiple wives brought about dire consequences. The Bible says that Solomon began to worship the false gods that his wives believed in! And just because it is allowed does not make it right. Jesus already gave us the reasoning for why it was allowed; “because the hardening of men’s hearts”.
NOWHERE does it say that Jesus blessed a homosexual relationship between a man and his servant! Jesus blessed the centurion and healed his servant because he had great FAITH!. A servant is no greater than his master and vice versa. Jesus Himself is our Master but He came to serve! The centurion was not having a sexual relationship with his servant. He simply cared about whether he lived or died as his servant was very valuable to him. Not all masters are cruel.
And no need to play the word game. Just because the word homosexual is not used does not mean the idea was not conveyed. “Men who lie with men as they would a woman” sounds like homosexuality to me!
http://www.str.org/articles/what-was-the-sin-of-sodom-and-gomorrah#.VucD8n0rJkg
Nothing needs to be started on David and Jonathan because they were not gay. Neither was Jesus and John.
Even Pat Robertson doesn’t believe that homosexuality led to Sodom’s destruction. It was pride and abundance of bread and they weren’t thankful.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/pat-robertson-pride-not-homosexuality-was-sin-sodom
You want to argue with Pat Robertson on the Bible?
Noticed a typo…
“In fact, any Bible that translates the Greek words “arsenokoites” or “malakos” into homosexual IS*** a completely ignorant translation as the word homosexual was not even used until the 1900s.”
So quick to defened marriage to be between a man and a women, however; How can people support it when the structure is weak. The actual instituion is even a joke, going to vegas get married because there is nothing better else to do, a young gold digger marrying an old man for his money. Come on, you have to have a better stand for yourself then that. I myself wont marry until everyone is able to love an marry who they want…..
So if a man loves his daughter, should he be allowed to marry her?
Cain and his wife. Sister.
Abraham and Sarah. Half sister.
Nachor and Melcha. Niece.
Lot and his daughters. (Though they weren’t married. They just had sex)
Amram and jochabed. Auntie.
So what is your point?
First, I will like to posit that ” there is no unambigous statement in the Bible that say ~ A man MUST marry just one woman”. If there is, kindly send me there verse. (Of course, I don’t want more than a verse). Before you start to get on the opposition side, I do not, personally, think it’s moral for any man to marry more than one wife. For as it is shameful for a woman to have more than one husband, so it should be for every man.
Having said that, there is also not strict measure in the Bible against marrying more than a wife as there are for other sins. When God forbade Adam from eating the fruits of “that” tree, he used a definitive negative term – THOU SHALL NOT! For every statement in the 10 commandments, He did same. These were the things He was strict about as SINFUL. This accounted for the reason Abraham remained Holy in the sight of God even after taking a second wife. And there is no reference that God, at least once, told him not to.
It is not an outright sin. But God knows what is best for us – One man to a woman and one woman to a man.
The judgement on this issue would largely depend on circumstances and contexts. As for Abraham, he was compelled owing to the frustration of his long but frutless marriage to Sarah. God was subtle on him in HIs silence. He could have said, DON’T. To nullify that God would not bless such union, He blessed Ishmael!
The statement that “a man leaves his parents to join his wife in one union” does not strictly translate to “Every man must marry one wife” or “Every wife must marry one Husband” NO! If eg Man A’ marries Woman B’, we regard this as marriage. Will this lessen the status of Man A”s marriage to Woman C for example? No. It won’t. Therefore, we would still be correct to say that a marriage must be between one man and one woman. Though we have 2 marriages in this case, each one of them involves a man and a woman in their rights. We would not describe the entire entanglement as a Union. No. There are 2 unions but each is 1 man and 1 woman.
If the verse had said “1 man to 1 woman and 1 woman to 1 man”, it would have meant that the second union is illegal n sinful. But it did not and so leaves the option open to discretion based on individual circumstances.
While Solomon’s circumstance might not be literally stated, it was clear he courted no other man’s wife. That is not adultery. He simply had many wives and many concubines. We could assume that the concubines have other suitors but it will remain an assumption as there are not clear-cut statements that suggest so. The hardship that Abraham went through wasn’t because he deified God on marrying one wife. It is a normal challenge of having more than manageable of anything. Something having too many clothes also might have caused.
Having expressed my opinion, I still strongly maintain that for every man, it is best to have one wife that is exclusively yours and your are exclusively hers.
I rest my kiss
FYI
Your statement….”It is not an outright sin. But God knows what is best for us – One man to a woman and one woman to a man.”
What is best for us is to never marry. To let Christ be first.
I assume that you refer to I Corinthians 7 when you write what you do. Please understand the context of chapter 7. Paul is writing to answer specific questions that they asked him. He explains that you are to be content in your situation. If you are not married do not seek to get married. If it is God’s desire to provide a wife for you then He will bring her to you at the right time. He also explains that if you are married then be content in your marriage. The secret of success here is not being married or unmarried but instead, being satisfied in God no matter what. God clearly says in Gen. 2, it is not good for man to be alone (he needs a mate and God is the One who provides). Marriage is God’s plan. He married Israel, Jesus will marry the Church.
Bwamp. I’m sure you think Paul sat down and talked about everything Jesus and God thought about everything ever, but I’m perfectly content with not living with the ideals of a man who held Jews above Gentiles and told you to have sex with whores instead of masturbate. Good stuff.
Paul never promoted “having sex with whores” as you say. Please, some evidence! Also, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and he held Jews and Gentiles on the same level in the eyes of God. Once again, evidence please!
Judge not, that you be not judged.For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and twith the measure you use it will be measured to you.
May I please add the quote in context because immediately after this quote Jesus tells us to discern between two kinds of people.
Jesus explains what improper judging is, when you see the sins of others and yet do nothing about your own. He clearly says, “take care of your own sin and then help your brother get rid of his too”
In the final verse of the paragraph, Jesus explains that we have to discern between the pigs and the dogs (this is a reference to people, used by St. Paul as well).
Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He, who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Calling a sin a sin or saying that a destructive way of life is wrong is not judging. Judging would be if I condemned immorality and then practiced it myself. Having discernment and judging are two different things and the Bible demands one (discernment) while condemning the other when it is done improperly.
I think that people forget that our country was founded on a puritanical belief system and that the present day Christianity has discarded much from ancient Christian beliefs. Note the following:
“A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine’s Monastery on Mt. Sinai in Israel. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman ‘pronubus’ (a best man), overseeing a wedding. The pronubus is Christ. The married couple are both men.
Is the icon suggesting that a gay “wedding” is being sanctified by Christ himself? The idea seems shocking. But the full answer comes from other early Christian sources about the two men featured in the icon, St. Sergius and St. Bacchus, two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ‘secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.
While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (AD 512 – 518) explained that, “we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life”. This is not a case of simple “adelphopoiia.” In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the “sweet companion and lover” of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus’s close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as “erastai,” or “lovers”. In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.
Contrary to myth, Christianity’s concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual.
Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the “Office of Same-Sex Union” (10th and 11th century), and the “Order for Uniting Two Men” (11th and 12th century).
These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.
Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12thand/ early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (‘Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.
Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, “Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union”, invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to “vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints”. The ceremony concludes: “And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded”.
Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic “Office of the Same Sex Union”, uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.
Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.
The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, “Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae” (Paris, 1667).
While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.
At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope’s parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, “taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together” according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.
Prof. Boswell’s academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.
For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.”
More on John Boswell and his work here
‘Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe’, by John Boswell here on Amazon
Read more at http://www.iheartchaos.com/post/22806986381/the-time-when-same-sex-marriage-was-a-christian-rite#o52jDZPYF0AfHqgc.99
“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camels to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
Hmmmmmm, Erik are we just choosing which versus to take literally, or shall we condemn all those who are wealthy from the kingdom of heaven??
Hmmm, the passage does not say that a rich man will not (under any circumstance) enter the kingdom of heaven. You are cherry picking and spinning to try and make the Bible conform to your preconceived ideas. It does not work.
Plus, the Bible does not condemn money or the rich. The Bible condemns the love of money (it is the root of all evil, not money itself) and the wealthy who earn their wealth by ungodly activities.
eric, please. then why the allegory of the camel and the needle? it is impossible for that to happen, and jesus is clearly saying it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. if you dont admit that, then you are insincere at best and lying at worst.
I guess you are not big on context, both immediate and Biblical. I will try and help you out a bit. Jesus uses this image while teaching His disciples. The immediate context is, there was a rich ruler who came to Jesus wanting to inherit eternal life. He was a religious man as well as a moral man yet there was something missing. His problem was not that he had money. Jesus reached the heart of the problem when He told the man to sell all that he owned and give it all to the poor. The man left sad because he loved his wealth more than he loved God. Look at the commandments that Jesus quotes. He deliberately chooses the commands that deal with man’s relationship to his neighbor (fellow man). He omitted the first 4, which deal with man’s relationship to God. The rich man’s love of his money was keeping him from loving and serving God. Jesus offered the man eternal life but he rejected it because he could not let go of his money (not based on the fact that he had money). There were wealthy women who helped support Jesus’ ministry and He never condemned them.
St. Paul, a man taught directly by Jesus Christ, expounded even more on this topic when writing to his disciple, Timothy.
Notice he does not say “money” is the root of all evil but the love of money. Why is this important? Because a poor man who has no wealth can also be controlled by the love of money just like the rich man.
There are many rich and godly people in the Bible so claiming that the Bible teaches that a rich man cannot be a man of God and cannot enter the kingdom of heaven is just absurd.
The whole “Biblical definition of ‘marriage'” discussion, and the ambiguity that even a bit player like, say, Onan (let alone that whole lack of female-as-spouse consent leitmotif) presents, is not even necessary in order to condemn homosexual relationships and feel darn good about it! Homosexuality (between men at least) is expressly prohibited in Leviticus about as clearly as *anything* is in any part of the Bible. Boom! No need to attempt to spin this and that verse to fit some “biblical marriage = X” narrative – you’ve got the gays (men) totally covered (with stones perhaps?) with Lev. 18:22.
What’s that? “But that’s the Old Testament!” you say? Well, since Christ didn’t come to change the law, but rather to fulfill it – ipso facto: Abominable NO, man! Check and mate. Of course, this also means that Red Lobster, handing your beloved wife a Tampon, and possibly the very name “Kevin Bacon” are also abominations, but…. crab legs and Footloose are too good to give up!
First of all Paul was not taught by the “bodily” Jesus, in order to believe that you have to believe in the resurrection which i do not.
Your point about the women proves my point. They were people of means who only earned eternal life by GIVING UP that wealth, thereby no more being of means.
Further in Acts:
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great
power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.
Sounds almost socialist …
So, let me help you with context. If Leviticus is correct, then do i need to avoid my wife for seven days while she is menstruating??
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
So context can cut both ways Erik. The bigger point is that use the Bible as a road map for secular policies is folly.
You believing or not believing in the resurrection does not change the fact of its reality. There is ample evidence to support the literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Here are a few resources that empirically prove the literal, bodily resurrection of Christ. Josh McDowell is one former skeptic that you may have heard of. From what you write, you probably adhere to the teachings of modern relativism.
They gave of their own free will. I am so glad that you brought up Acts. Again, I will refer to the context, which you do not seem to pay attention to.
I will quote from another of my posts, one that answers this common fallacy that you have used. The entire post may be read here.
Here are a few observations from this passage:
– The believers chose to accept the message preached by Peter (they were not forced or deceived into believing)
– They were never asked to give up all of their possessions.
– They were told to repent of their sins and follow Jesus Christ (which is the same message that Jesus preached).
– The people chose to devote themselves to God’s work (every aspect, even their possession)
– There is nothing in the passage that says that they sold “all” of their possessions
– They saw the needs and helped each other out with what they had (again, by choice and not by force)
As a cross reference to this passage, the good atheist usually brings up the story of Ananias and Sapphira, claiming that this text demands that all believers sell all of their property and if they do not, then they are put to death. Ananias and Sapphira did die, but let’s find out why:
Here are some insights from this passage.
– Ananias and Sapphira chose to sell their property and use the money for the ministry
– They willingly lied about how much money they made, and secretly kept money for themselves (this was after they seemingly made a pledge to sell and use the proceeds for the ministry, in other words, they made a promise to God and to man, and then tried to deceive both God and man)
– They were at liberty to keep their property as their own (they chose to sell it)
– It seems that they were just trying to impress with their gift and not giving with a cheerful spirit
– They died because they tried to lie to God and deceive Him
– They were not punished by God because they did not give up all that they had
– They only sold a piece of property and not all that they had
– There was no forced giving here
So, once again your arguments are invalid because you do not pay attention to the context and instead, you try to distort the Bible to maintain your own point of view instead of letting the Bible make the original point intended. We are coming full circle to modern relativism once again.
oh yes context. much like patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel the cry of context come from those who know their arguments are weak. i almost can hear you say “depends on what the definition of is is”!!!!
outside of the gospels there is NO evidence of a resurrection at the time it was supposed to have occurred. flavius josephus never mentions it or even hints about it. since the bible is not accepted as a genuine historical document, the resurrection is still a matter of faith, or as josh mcdowell intimated a great hoax.
but alas, we stray afar from the real issue. if leviticus is to be adhered to, and secular law should be based on those admonitions, do i need to shun my wife for seven days while she is menstruating???
I like how you easily jump over the evidence that completely disproves your argument without admitting how wrong you were and then running off on another tangent, typical. I understand that you cannot admit defeat even when you see it in black and white.
and my wife?? can you answer that question?? shall i shun her for seven days while denying homosexuals their basic human rights??
You are just like the Pharisees. They had tons of questions for Jesus but they did not really care about the answers. They were just trying to trap Him. Until you admit that you were wrong about the wealthy and heaven (as I proved from the Bible text) then I will not answer any other “questions” that you have. Once you humble yourself and do that, then I will address the rest. Have a nice day.
” I understand that you cannot admit defeat even when you see it in black and white.”
Your words, not mine.
I look forward to the day that all of God’s children have equal rights and are free of bigotry and persecution the tyrannical rule of a book.
Good day.
Not every person created by God is a “child” of God. The only way to be a child of God is to be adopted into the family by being born again. It is impossible to be homosexual and born again. The two are like oil and water.
Oh Erik … how blind. Now who is like the Pharisees??? Strictly adhering to the letter of the law while at the same time violating its spirit. Jesus loved all men, the righteous and the sinners. And he would love all men today and welcome them into his kingdom of heaven. The christian right makes me laugh … heartily laugh.
Until i realize your beliefs are based on wickedness and hatred, then i cry. I cry for you Erik, and every other person who thinks they own Jesus Christ, and use him to advance a closed minded political agenda. I tell you this, if you are right and there is a judgement day, it is a day you and all your followers should fear, because you will be condemned for perverting Jesus’ teachings.
Have a loving day …
John
late arrival, but I never understood, why people who dont believe in the Bible come to such places as this one, why do you care?, are you trying to convince someone here? I dont go to atheist blogs or web-sites, if you’re really wanting to learn or want direction, or have questions cool. But, too often people come along with intentions of just trying to refute and attack scripture, I say this in a loving way, but man get a life, if people want to believe then let them, if you dont want to, then dont, your choice, no one brought you here but yourself
You are exactly right, and if this blog was simply about the adherence to a 2000 year old superstition i wouldnt be here. But Mr Brewer is attempting to justify depriving a segment of our society their equal rights using the Bible, of all things, as the crux of his reasoning. that type of thinking must be fought, intellectually of course, at every turn.
Thats why some of us show up here. Perhaps we change no opinions, but maybe, just maybe, we cause one of you to think.
Why was my post deleted? You didn’t even respond to it!
Which post? I do not think it has been approved yet. If you read my last post, you will see that I am behind on the comments and posts and I am attempting to catch up. Please be patient and I will get to all of the comments.
i find it amazing how people need so badly to live a life in accordance to what man has written. i know what is moral and immoral. if all people are created equal then they should live as equals. so many times i hear,’live in the light of Christ’. well actually i live a very moral highly ethical life. i do not need a priest to say i am forgiven and will be allowed in heaven. speaking of, does a Priest who has committed homosexual acts by preying upon little children get accepted into heaven? think of that!
A priest does not have the power to forgive your sins or allow you to enter heaven. God is the only One who has the power to forgive sins and He does it when a person repents of his sins, accepts Jesus Christ as Lord (Master) and Savior, and begins following Christ on a daily basis.
A priest who commits terrible sins can be forgiven just like anyone else. When he is forgiven, he does not go on practicing sins.
Since you say that you are a moral person, I have a few questions I would like to ask and like for you to answer honestly:
1) Have you ever told a lie?
2) Have you ever stolen anything?
3) Have you ever had sexual related fantasies about another person who is not your spouse?
4) Have you ever said a swear word with God or Jesus’ name attached to it?
Those are just 4 of the 10 Commandments. How moral are you when you compare your morality to God’s?
You said this “Things have not changed under the New T. The Apostle Paul, who was directly taught by Jesus Christ, Himself, also spoke on marriage. Here is what he had to say.” My question is simple; where in the bible history did Jesus teach (directly taught)Paul?
Paul was taught by Jesus after His resurrection from the dead. Paul never saw Jesus until Acts chapter 9. Then, in Galatians chapter 1, Paul explains of how he was taught and by whom.
Thank you for your article. I will be the first to admit that there are many difficult passages in God’s Word for which I have no answer. However, I do accept the Bible as God’s revelation to man concerning His plans and purposes. That being said, I believe it is necessary to begin by taking the Bible as a whole. No one reads a book and then explains it to someone else by jumping from one chapter to another. Rather, you start at the beginning and retell it to the end. First and foremost, the Bible is God’s written message to mankind transmitted via the Spirit of God. Look at what God’s plan was. A perfect earth created for perfect man(kind). He had to give man the ability to love, as He loves, in order to create a perfect man. This meant freedom to choose obedience or disobedience. Man disobeyed God. But God still had a plan. He wanted to set aside a remnant of people who would live on this now fallen planet as His example to others of how to live a full, joyful, and meaningful life. God created us. He is all-knowing and perfectly loving as well as being just and Holy. He knows what is best for us. However, in our present state, we often choose wrongly – choosing to disobey and mistrust the One who created us. God chose Abraham and, eventually the nation of Israel to be His example to all peoples on how to live in this fallen state with a Holy God. However, they failed. But God still had a plan. Since He told Adam and Eve that to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would bring death, and God cannot lie, then they deserved to die. Since we all deserve to die because we disobey and distrust the God who created us, then what are we to do? We can do nothing and this is why God sent His one and only Son, Jesus Christ. To die for our sins, conquer death, therefore redeeming us and presenting us, through Him, to a Holy and Just God.
This post is much longer than I wished to write but I believe you get my point. God’s plan is perfect. If it isn’t, then He is not perfect and He is not God. God’s perfect plan is one man for one woman. God’s perfect plan is the eradication of death-inducing sin. God’s perfect plan is for each of us to be made clean through His one and only Son, Jesus Christ the messiah. God still expects us to adhere to His plan and when we choose our own way we must live with the consequences. An example of man not adhering to God’s plan was when Abraham listened to his wife and took her servant and had a child through her named Ishmael. It is the descendants of Ishmael who have become the greatest enemies of Israel and, consequently, Christianity. God has never forced man to follow His plan but He has always warned man about the consequences of following his(man’s) own preconceived ways.
I am thankful that God has purchased salvation for me. I am also thankful that He has given me His Spirit to aid me in discerning what is right and wrong when there is no clear-cut answer. God’s Word teaches that until you place your faith in Him and receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you will not receive the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you will not be able to fully understand the Bible. The letter to the Romans is a good reference for the Spirit and His work in us.
One thing, which I almost forgot to mention, is God’s enemy, Satan, and the role he plays in all this. If you are not a child of God, then you have no defense against the attacks of Satan. It seems these days that we don’t like to talk a lot about Satan and this is to his advantage.
Well, I’ve written probably much more than most will read. It is my hope that you will continue to seek God and submit yourself to Him. Read His Word. Recognizing that it is all about His perfect plan for you.
1 Corinthians 14:33 says that God is not the author of confusion. And that’s what this thread has become.
God loves us all and gave his only begotten Son to die for our sins. Everyone that believes in Him will be saved. That’s the first step to this whole argument. Whether you’re straight or gay, it doesn’t matter. There’s only one belief that must come first. Believe in Christ and be saved. And after that, the Holy Spirit will show you more Truth than you ever knew existed.
Everything you said here would prove that Jesus had a wife. After all, man was created in his own image. Jesus was tempted and Paul taught that the way to overcome the temptation was take a wife. Jesus came down to earth to walk among men. He had the same urges that any human being had. He needed to eat, proven by Satan tempting him to turn the rocks to bread. Therefore he also removed waste from his body like we did. If he walked as man, that meant he had functioning sex organs, the ability to reproduce. Sex, moral sex, after marriage is taught as a gift from God. Only two species on this planet have sex for enjoyment, that I am aware of, human and dolphin.
Jesus has a bride and a marriage covenant was cut at Calvary. The marriage ceremony is coming but not yet. All of this is laid out in the Bible, the 66 revealed books that make up the Holy Scriptures. While walking on this earth almost 2,000 years ago, Jesus did not have a wife (like some of these fiary-tales claim). He has a bride, the church, which will one day be joined with Him.
You cannot say Jesus did not have a wife on earth. Nothing in the scriptures forbids it. The Bible as it was compiled by the Catholic Church leaves no reference to it, but I know that the Catholic Church was not the church Jesus set up, therefore for the Catholic Church could have very possibly disobeyed Revelations 22:18-19. When the reformation occurred, we took away the Apocrypha, what we thought was unworthy of the Bible. Also, Gen 2:24, the passage that says a man shall leave his father and mother. God is symbolically Jesus’ father. Jesus left heaven, left his father to come down to earth. Gen 2:24 is a commandment of God to all men. It is also a commandment straight from Jesus’ father leading me to believe that Jesus also had to obey it.
The truth is, the Bible does not say one way or another that Jesus’ did not marry.
Also, Jesus’ bride, the church and substituent marriage is a spiritual marriage, not a physical one, which God commands.
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Read the Bible oh! man that you can leave happily.GODcreated man fist and he seen to be alone and there our only mother Eva was created from him. One to One.
No MULTIPLE MARRIAGE. God creted us equal, if that is the case let the women be married to two man, if the man can take two or three!
by . joe kunnumbara David . Tanzania.
A man can have more than one wife if he does not diminish what she is entitled to. Methinks that includes exclusive attention, affection, and appreciation, so yes, more than one would diminish what she is entitled to.
Marry more than one wife does not contradict scripture your teaching has let so many men having privates wives and many woman homeless
One man is good for woman because having more than one wives is hellish and it can leads to unemployment and also it leads to mariad problems to mans life
Let us b honest here and stop fooling ourselves.
God did not want to control man from the beginning. He made man in his own image and put man in charge over other created things.
The fall of man led to sin and things formally put under man to revolt against man.
Because man is still in the image of God, God now wants to help man to succeed. This led to the laws we now have. Homosexuality is not ordained by God because we know how God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah because of Homosexual relationship.
The influence of sin is changing a whole lot of definitions we originally know. Imagine I tell a girl I love her today and her mind runs to sex. These are the influence of sin and a sign of end time.
Because God did not plan to control man and is not controlling man; man takes his decisions. The first decision taken by man was to eat the forbidden fruit.
God will still allow you to marry uncountable wives (afterall Solomon enjoyed it) and even indulge in same sex marriage. It is strictly your choice afterall you are a god too. Live your life as you want but remember God has set before you life and death to choose. God in His mercy will turn to you anytime you repent.
The only mistake people make is looking unto men and not God. Because Abraham, David etc married more than one wife and they have good relationship with God does not make the marriage holy. Afterall you have friends that do some disgusting things, yet they are still your friends. will it now be right to say you approve of those disgusting things?
Go and work out your relationship with God. Discuss your plan with God and make sure you hear from him. If He approves you to marry many wives or indulge in same sex marriage, then it is your relationship with him.
For me God says no to same sex marrige and polygamy and I assure you that when you establish a relationship with Him, He will tell you no and will even help you to stay clear.
Very weak and easily disprovable arguments. We have original texts that match the translations. Texts that predate the Birth of Christ that speak of the circumstances of His birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection. Read up a bit on the Dead Sea scrolls.
“Many people (mostly homosexuals and their atheist friends)”?? How can you make such an inflammatory and bigoted remark like that and expect others to believe what you are “preaching” is truth?
Nice cut and paste. Next time get the full statement and stop trying to spin based on a portion taken out of context.
The more I deal with both homosexuals and atheists, the more alike I see that they are. In fact one is the result of the other. Read Romans 1 to find out.
Also, I have noticed that both homosexuals and atheists try to downgrade the value of the Word of God. In this aspect, they truly are friends. One more thing, you are the one (along with homosexuals and atheists) started with the name calling, not me. But I guess facts are not that important to you.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
God is able to prevent evil. What about the one who does evil, is he not to be held responsible for his actions? God allows free will. If He were not to allow free will then you would complain about that. He allows free will and you blame Him when people choose to do evil. I think this says more about you than it does about God 😉
God did not create evil. He left room for evil by allowing free will. That does not make Him the author of evil. Again, free will beings have to take responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming the One who gave them free will.
Erik Brewer….. if homosexuality is a choice… at what point in your life did yuo choose to be straight?
God made the choice that if I wanted to marry, I would choose to marry a woman when He made me male. I choose to obey His choice. Homosexuals choose to disobey God’s choice by choosing to be gay.
So Erik, are you saying that Abraham and David, ancestors of Jesus, are burning in hell right now because they chose to “disobey God’s choice” and have multiple wives and concubines? Or is polygamy endorsed by God? Or do Old Testament laws not count? And if not, do the Old Testament laws only count for situations that fit your personal paradigm? Do believe that someone should be put to death for mixing natural and man-made fabrics? Or for mixing meat and dairy products? Or do you believe that Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses so that is therefor now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? And if so, do you believe that the apostle Paul really meant that there is only no condemnation for those who follow your personal paradigm of what you think should be lifted from the Old Testament and what should not? How do you decide which Old Testament laws that must be kept and which ones to discard, other than your own personal interpretation?
No, I never said that. They were sinners just like you and me. They made mistakes like we do. They turned to God for forgiveness and help (unlike most people). They received forgiveness from God (just like any sinner can).
Please see this nice explanation of mixing fabrics.
Hmm it appears like your website ate my first comment (it was extremely
long) so I guess I’ll just sum it up what I wrote and say, I’m thoroughly enjoying your blog.
I too am an aspiring blog writer but I’m still new to the whole thing. Do you have any suggestions for first-time blog writers? I’d really appreciate it.
This is actually one of “those” topics in the Bible, where it isn’t clear and there’s no need to “figure out” how to get more wives. I have review the Word for years now, watching for signs on the topic as I read, since it’s one of “those” topics and what I see is God did not openly punish anyone for more than one wife. However God HATES divorce but there is no record of Him punishing someone for that, to my knowledge. And yet the priest who married outside of Israel we encouraged to leave their wives and families because they had married wrongly.
In Gen. it says “a man” and “cleave to his wife”, not “one man and one woman”. It speaks of becoming one, which means united or to function as one. The church is called the “Bride of Christ” made up of many individual brides or one corporately.
Back in the day (the OT) the only person you could trust was family, I’m guessing raising up your own personal army made sense. So unless you need an army (and can feed one), you better stick to one wife.
I must tell you!!!
In olden days, Man can marry as many as he can control(take care of). Due to the population of male is lower than of female.
nowadays Many claimed christian are now following Catholic Cult Culture(CCC)…”One man, one woman” . Because you don’t want to answer “second wife” and you’re getting older, because that you fake priest said that he’s not going to wedd you, unless you……….
Who is fooling who?
In torah deut 21:15-17 Yahuwah gives a law to polygamists on not showing favoritism to the sons of different wives. Solomon was rebuked for multiplying wives aka taking it toofar bc of his wealth etc. Further more torah defines sin, it defines sexual sin, no where does define polygamy as sin. Yahushua aka jesus did not do away with torah, the parts of it that are still able to be applied still stand ie Shabbat, and sexual morality. Paul’s writings are misunderstood bc they are very complex and difficult to understand as peter describes.Please seek the Hebrew roots of your faith and rid yourself of pagan influence injected by the Catholic church. Marriage between 1 man and 1woman is sacred and blessed before Yahuwah aka god. Take care.
Be it a Preacher, or simply – a person of faith; their duty, and only ability is to plant the seed. We can not cultivate that which will not grow. There are many reasons, as with crops in the field, the seeds planted in the hearts of men will not grow. We can build elaborate irrigation systems to water our seeds as is needed, but it is all in vain, if, and/or when, disease sets in. As for disease in the hearts of men, the only cure – is the truth. However, when the truth is rejected, there is no cure, and no hope for those who are lost. Moreover, nor should we squander precious time attempting to grow a diseased crop; if, an honest effort has been made to cure the disease, we are to, and are best, spending our time sowing – yet more seeds. We shall harvest those who eat the bread of life when it is offered, and leave those who reject it, to be as meat – for the beast in the fields, and let them all – who reject the word of God Almighty, be consumed by every kind of beast, for they, are no longer our concern, nor worthy of it.
Eric, it seems that you have not been on your blog in a while now, and I am late finding it. However, I’d like to leave my own seed here with you, and those who read your blog. The easiest way for me to do it is to tell you of my own experiences. I have read the entire KJV, with the exception of Revelations. Mind you, I was 13 when I did, and my momma, rest her soul, advised me not to read Revelations, because she thought it would be too frightening for my young mind – at the time. I have yet to completely read Revelations, although I have studied parts, since I am now old enough and ready to start pushing up daisies. Nonetheless…
Growing up in a single parent home, God Almighty was the only Father I knew. As it was, it was just meant to be that way. I do not attend church regularly, and though I’ve gone occasionally – as an adult, I have not regularly attended since I was a child. When I was 21, I began longing to leave the bosom of my mother, and find the woman who God meant to be my wife. One night, I prayed to God Almighty about my need, and the next evening, the woman who became and is my wife pulled into my driveway. My wife became pregnant with our first of 4 daughters. My mother died 2 months exactly before my first child was born. I told God that I hated him, but in the same breath, I apologized and asked for forgiveness. I was devastated that my mother did not get to see my child be born. Although my momma knew I was going to be a daddy, that fact brought little – to no comfort to me. Through my pain, I prayed, in private, and in front of my wife. I asked God if he would let me know somehow when my wife has our baby, that my momma was there and got to see my baby born into this life. However, I did make it clear, that I really did not care to see any ghost. Moving forward; my wife is in labor, her male doctor comes in, says; “I just put new batteries in my pager, (he pressed the button, it worked) when she gets 7cm dilated, page me and I’ll be right back quickly.” 7 cm’s came quickly, and he was paged repeatedly, to no avail. 10 cm’s, and we could wait no more, the baby was crowning. A hefty black female Dr. comes in and delivers our baby. She handed me the birth certificate, and I lit up. My wife asked what I was smiling about, because I was looking at the birth certificate and my smile got bigger. I showed it to my wife, and she lit up. My momma’s name was Linda. The Dr’s name was Linda. Coincidence? No…It was all Gods doing, to answer my prayer.
My younger brother and his wife was also expecting, and I asked God if he would let my brother know somehow, that my momma was there with him as well. And he did. There baby was born at a different hospital. We get there after delivery. My sister-in-law says, “Tim, you ain’t going to believe this. My Labor and Delivery nurse – looked j u s t l i k e your m o m – m a. And guess what…The Dr that delivered Destiny, her name was Linda, and it’s on her birth certificate.” And I just smiled. I don’t know if my brother prayed for that, but I do know that I did, for him. Coincidence? No…It was all Gods doing, to answer my prayer.
Moving forward 22 years. It’s not easy to be a family man, when your career has you away from home more than you are there. My wife of 22 years, blamed it on loneliness, and a lack of companionship. But she chose to cheat on me. I was devastated. I lost all hope. I lost my will and desire to go on living. I sat in my truck and cried for my momma, who had been dead for 22 years, because I needed her so much right then, and I wanted to be with her. I told my oldest daughters boyfriend to unload my guns, put them in my daughters car and get them away from me. I saw the end coming. I did not want to go on, but I did not want my two little ones seeing me with my brains blown out. Later that night, while making my delivery, sitting in my truck, I cried out to God – to take the pain from my chest. And whereas I was praying for death as I was bent over my steering wheel, and hoping I would have a heart attack, and just stop breathing; God Almighty clearly had other plans. Wreathing in pain, I felt something reach into my chest. I physically felt it lifting up on my heart. It actually sat me straight up in my drivers seat. Where I had no strength, I felt it being instilled into my heart. Where there was no hope, or desire for life left in my heart, I felt it being restored. I didn’t know what it was that touched me, an Angel maybe, but at that moment, I knew that I didn’t want to die anymore. And I said – thank you Lord. And then, as clear as a preacher on a Sunday morning giving his sermon to the congregation. I heard an audible voice say; “My son, I have come to you in your time of need, for I am your father, God Almighty. I have healed your heart, so that you may live without pain. You also need to know the truth. For I am the truth, I shall show you the truth. And when I show you the truth, you will know that it is the truth, and you will say – yes, that is the truth.” And at that moment, it’s like God wiped a fog from my mind; literally taking the blinders out from in front of my eyes. And he showed me various memories from my life, and he would twist the picture, where my wife was twisting the truth, then show me how it actually was or is with other memories. When God Almighty showed me the truth, I knew that it was the truth – without a doubt. And I said, yes, that is the truth. That is the truth! And God continued; “Now go to your wife, and tell her that you know the truth, for God Almighty has shown you the truth. And just as I have shown you the truth, tell your wife the truth. You will say to her, when I tell you the truth, as God Almighty has shown me the truth, you will know that it is the truth, and you will say, yes Tim, that is the truth.” 7 hours from home, I had not slept in weeks. I could not wait to get home and tell my wife the truth, just as God Almighty had shown me the truth. And I did. And she said, yes Tim, that is the truth. I could not see the truth for so many lies she had said, but God Almighty showed me the truth. And when I asked God, what his will was for me to do now, he said “I will make you a shepherd of my people.” I’m not a preacher. I don’t go to church regularly, and haven’t been in many years. It’s been many years since I read the bible with conviction. Me? A shepherd of Gods people? How? I guess that will be a bridge I cross when I come to it. I am still amazed that, God called me, “my son,” and although in a third party reference, he said my name. “Tim.”
(Now, what he meant by, “so that you may live without pain,” – I don’t know, because I still hurt from what my wife has done. I’m just not suicidal anymore.)
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apparently you believers do not have a son or a daughter that is gay. If you did your views would be way different and your opinion would be different because your love for your child is unconditional and the reason gay people want to get married is for survivors benefits, medical,retirements , etc..etc.and most of all LOVE.
If you had a son or daughter hooked on crack, would you encourage that lifestyle and try to make it acceptable to all? Please give me a simple, straight forward answer with no spin.
Enabling a dangerous lifestyle is not “love”.
Do you warn every overweight person that their gluttonous lifestyle is not healthy and it’s a sin? In fact the bible said it’s better that you slit your own throat than give into gluttony. Buuuut, I’m sure half the congregation wouldn’t like hearing that they’re all going to burn in hell because they’re wearing size 18 pants. I was taught that homosexual acts are immoral and a sin. Even so I don’t see what right I have as an American citizen to force my own beliefs on anyone else. As an American I value our separation of Church and State simply because it allows me to practice my life in the way I deem fit without anyone else telling me how I can and cannot practice my religion. Would you like it if you were forced to deny that homosexual acts are sins or be imprisoned. Yes, Christians are the majority today, but that may not always be the case. Would you want your wife forced to wear a head wrap just because your neighborhood is 70% Islamic? Jesus did not force anyone one to follow him, in fact I think he had so many followers for the exact opposite. Maybe if there were more Christians that led exemplary lifestyles, did not have a divorce rate as high as the rest of the nation, and stopped living life like they’re waiting on heaven instead of enjoying the here and now, more people would want to learn and find out just what makes your life so great. My mother did not become Christian because she was afraid of going to hell, she became Christian because the group of people she thought the most highly of shared their love of Jesus with her. Simply allowing something does not make it acceptable. God allowed multiple wives, it doesn’t mean he condoned it. It obviously didn’t work out and people eventually caught on.
Society is not promoting a gluttonous lifestyle starting in kindergarten. Homosexuality, along with many other forms of sexual immorality are being taught to children as they enter kindergarten all the way to the grave. I find it funny that the same society that condemns gluttony, promotes sexual immorality. One sin is condemned and the other is not only accepted but, promoted. There is no end to the hypocrisy of the modern world ☺
One can wear size 18 and still be physically healthy.
These are your words. Now translate that to the homosexual agenda. They want to push gay marriage down society’s throat. The legislate it upon people without giving them the right to vote for or against. When given the right to vote, the overwhelming majority votes against gay marriage. Again, the hypocrisy is laughable.
Separation of church and state is not in the constitution. Plus, the idea of separation of church and state means that the state does not have the right to control the church, not that the church has no right to be involved in stately activities. You need to stop drinking in all of the propaganda of the liberals who lie to you willingly.
You are told how you can and cannot practice your religion. If your religion demands child sacrifice, the state will not allow it. Please think through your arguments. Morality is legislated. The states has a say in what goes on in your bedroom. If you are murdering people in your bedroom, the state has every right to stop you. Again, these are all rehashed arguments that other people have not thought out well. They sound great until you actually start using logic.
I am a Christian who does lead an exemplary lifestyle. I have never been divorced. I patiently await heaven by producing fruit here on earth, living the abundant life that Jesus talks about. Maybe you need to find some born again Christians and get to know them a little better. Also, it would not hurt to get a Biblical perspective on these issues. Bible study will literally rock your world ☺
I did not become a Christian to escape hell. If you take a look at the teachings that I have presented on the blog, I have not mentioned much about hell.
You seem to have lots of questions and I would love to help you find the Biblical answers.
Well said, Gus
Well that certainly makes very much sense to me when God said that a wife is a gift for a man, and it is 100 percent better than being alone all the time and having No One At All.
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Someone once wrote that God is within and the moment we say yes to him in our hearts and by mouth we are saved. Thats OT. God PROMISES to save us. No one in heaven or earth can rescind that. From that moment on, our sin, since we cant help but sin is set aside. A sin is a sin no matter how you slice it. either it enters your mind or your idle hands. Doesn’t matter. Sin. We are then to ask for forgiveness and we are granted grace each and every time. The trick is not to allow grace to be an excuse. But if someone is really honest and repentful – they are saved over and over again. That’s big. That’s how big His love is. Now when you love someone and have sex with that person, a person needs to realize that person is his or hers. Forever – there is no ceremony. Its about heart, and love. My love for God comes from the heart and it is displayed for all to see. Such is the relationships I create in and out of marriage. There is no ceremony. there is only a display of my affection and words from the heart. many people dont understand and still today marriage is viewed as something that is God pleasing. It is something that you must do before you have sex. God created sex for two people who love each other and produce good fruit. Love respect and understanding. The truth is, a transformation will over come anyone who believes in God. Let it transform you and open your eyes. God Bless.
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PLEASE,can someone help to answer my question.my question goes this way,Is it biblical/Godly to accept the invitation of a man,asking you to sleep with his wife owing to some medical challenges he has?A man has been inviting me to have affair with his wife,but i found it quite strange.he has been trying to explain to me how much the wife desire me.he also pleaded with me to help save his marriage because of his health problem.
Please,can i accept such request or not…i really need a very good suggestion on what to do..
Thank you, Erik for this teaching. Accurate with evidence, and clear!
This, is actually my benchmark belief.. Any person that does not aknowledge and submit to Biblical Marriage as the only legitimate ground for Marriage and sexual intimacy as between a Husband and his Wife, is apostate to me, unbelievers, or “progressive” fake Christians..
The former not caring so no threat, the latter being people to avoid at all cost as self-deceived liars, despite their usually good motives.. In this life we live, by our current century of darkness, one can not afford to play with the sick fire of liberal interpetation, or keep friends among their friends day in, day out influencing them with such, if it happens regularly.. Amen.
Right, you self-reighteous little people. I see what you’re trying to do and you might be doing it with the best intentions. Can I just stress that I was born and raised a Catholic and I agree with around 90% of the bible. But people like you seem to forget that it is still a MAN MADE entity. By worshipping the word of the bible we are not worshipping God but Man. Saying that, humanism goes against all aspects of any religion so we are all stuck in a catch 22. ‘live like this and you won’t ever really live’ is the message it conveys. No wonder so many people have turned away from religion when people like you are SHUNNING what it’s supposed to be about. Who are you to fucking preach anyway? Are you not a sinner? What gives you the right to throw stoned at other sinners? Every time you have a sexual fantasy or feel even the slightest lust to anyone but your partner you are sinning. Of course you have to deny it in front of eschother but you know it’s true. If you really really read into the bibles word it’s practically a sin to have any pleasure from sex? You’re typically taking things to the top extreme and people like you are the reason that others think Catholics don’t have love in their hearts. And that’s what’s missing now. WHERE IS THE LOVE. All that gay people want is love, otherwise they would be asexual. Who are you to judge a homosexual? Seriously… Do you think if a gay man could be attracted to a woman he wouldn’t choose to be just that? I’ve seen so many gays battle with their orientation, my best friend came to me in tears wishing he could just be ‘normal’ and love a girl romantically. Platonic love is inadequate for marriage… That’s how people get divorced. I get that it’s ‘not the norm’ bla bla bla but WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE. THAT IS GODS JOB. YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE AS BEST YOU CAN AND SO WILL EVERY GAY. See you on judgement day.
Also if that was one of the ‘deadly’ sins then why is it not in the 10 commandments? If homosexuality was as bad as you make out then surely it was say ‘thy shall not covet thy neighbor house, wife or possession or covet thy neighbor sexually.’
I don’t advocate for any gay marriage nor homosexual marriage but for Heterosexual marriages. However, I oppose Erik’s&Elena’s Blog in the following dimensions:
I differ with Erik&Elena on the following:
You say…God is the One who noticed that it is not good for man to be alone (man was satisfied and he was not looking for a partner for life)…”
I think this is a lie. If not then answer these questions: What makes you think this way while:
1) God reads and knows the mind of man better than even man himself?
2) Adam himself is NOT reported anywhere telling God that he is satisfied?
You say …There is only one thing that can meet the man’s need, from God’s point of view, a woman (just 1, not more)…”
To me, this is NOT true. Eve was created out of loneliness that God witnessed in Adam. So just the same way every animal on earth was created Male and Female so does Eve created for Adam.
You say “…the 2 were together and not ashamed (shame comes when sex comes before marriage, or when marriage is anything other than 1 man and 1 woman)…”
I oppose this since there are so many evil men who never get ashamed with sex before marriage. And there are also so many people in even the one-one marriages who still have shame to have sex. So it’s not about before or after marriage but it’s all about personality and how one was made to believe about sexuality.
So perception (what you believe) plays a key role to feel Shame or Not whether it’s monogamy or polygamy
The shame came from eve eating the forbidden fruit nothing to do with sex . A man can have more than one wife , the writing about one wife is and it says if you are a preacher or a decon and that is because they would not have time to take care of the church read King James that is the closest to original translation God bless
I know and believe that marriage is holy and should be honored and respected. I know that the Bible recognizes only heterosexual marriages and not the homosexuals’ since God created Male and Female for that purpose and not otherwise.
I know God created every animal, including people, with different feelings and values but all these must be governed by Godly principles. To me, if a man has his values and feelings to have another wife, and he can meet and withstand conditions for family obligations, as set in the Bible, then he must just respect his first marriage by NOT divorcing his wife.
Paul talks of …a man having his OWN wife and a woman having her OWN husband… I think people just misinterpret OWN to mean ONE. Actually not. It means one whom he/she identifies his/her family with, in which case children can identify themselves with ONE biological father and ONE biological mother.
The is it okay for the woman to have two or more husbands?
No one husband the man is the head of the house if we live by that rule the two men would be in disagreement all the time read the bible you will see it all in there
God never change is the same yesterday today forever more
did god give a specific time on how long you have to be with someone before you get married
Note: One flesh does not mean sex. One flesh means that a man and the woman partner are together and stand together as one, through their minds and bodies. Not just through the pens and vagina. That is from our ignorance.
You see, this is where we allow a man made doctrine To enter the situation and mess things u. Males like to make the man-woman relationship to be all about sex. It totally is not . God does not mean for relationships too be only about sex. That is fulfilling men’s lustful desires and it so compicates matters for women.
A lot of assumptions and little actual facts.
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He did make more than one woman, or did you just forget about Lillith
In both of those chapters, Chrost was discussing Divorce. So since man cannot seperate (Divorce) that which God has made one (marriage), then why has there not been the same public outcrh from “Christians” regarding the legal application of Divorce as there has been for gay marriage. I have yet to see any public protest of divorces (save for Westboro Baptist Church mabye). And since all sin is equal in the eyes of the LORD, are all those living in a state of divorce the same and any homosexual living in marriage. By the same token, Christ says remarrying is the actually commiting adultery, so logically anyone who remarries after a divirce is not in anymore of a valid biblical marriage than any gay person.
The bible says a man should not lay with other man like a woman . And God does bless marriage to more than one woman , the bible says , only one wife if your a preacher or a Decon . It in black and white and some red letter s trying to change or complelcate it is what people try to do . I don’t judge so what your doing is between you and God . So read the bible and see the words . Don’t lesson to someone’s view on it till you have read for yourself , God bless
2 Ch 24:2 Joash did what was right in the sight of the LORD ALL THE DAYS of Jehoiada the priest.
2 Ch 24:3 And Jehoiada took two wives for him, and he had sons and daughters.
This verse may be missing from your Bible
I will make him a helper fit for him.” – A helper meaning one, not many helpers” you be fruitful and multiply with one woman
then the 2 become 1 flesh ,whats not to understand?
People just turn the bible the way they want,
If God permits more than one wife,let them have it, leave God to punish them, don’t do it, he’s a jealous God.
There is no point when you marry one wife and you still go to hell, I beg to differ, God told David specifically that He will give him more if he wanted, he got punished because the lady was married and he killed her husband two hefty sins back to back.
If you have two wives and you are born again you will go to heaven, period.
I never said a married man and a single lady having sex, I said TWO WIVES or MORE.
I don’t understand Christians they name their sons David and call the powerful king names because of the women.
Marry two wives be born again, you will enter heaven and a man with single wife with bad ways will burn in hell period
Whether great fire or small fire it is still fire and it burns.
Read the bible well and understand it.
Peace to all Men.
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Yes I have a question. If a woman divorcees her husband, and he wanted to work it out is he still accountable for her actions by God? But at the time I didn’t even know is consider as adutry. Are I would of never sign the papers. She was going to leave regardless.
am very grteful fr the good explain and scriptures
Love all the replies even the mean ones because most weren’t that mean. Great discussion between different Christians, different religions, and with the atheists. I wish more people could agree to disagree amicably rather than trying to win a fight with ugly name calling especially since the war has already been won. (That line is for the Christians. Just something to keep in mind when dealing with others and dealing with unbelievers. Stay salty and don’t do anything that extinguishes the light of Christ)
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Fantastic explanation!